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Innerfire89

Salvation without The Trinity? How?

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atpollard
42 minutes ago, Innerfire89 said:

I don't see why any more evidence would be necessary.

The blood of bulls achieved a Roman Catholic Confession type of forgiveness:  all of your sins up to that point are forgiven, but you WILL sin again tomorrow and those sins will need a future sacrifice to forgive them.  That is exactly what the writer of Hebrews was pointing to.  That is why he emphasized the need to offer animal sacrifices year after year.  

 

Jesus sacrifice was “better” because it covered all sins once and for all time.  One sacrifice for past and future sins.  However, who is to say that if the death of one bull is enough for the past sins of a nation, that the death of even one righteous man would not be enough of an offering to God to cover the sins of all of the elect?  It is all human logical constructs that demand that the payment equal the crime.  God, throughout the Old Testament never demands a payment in full.  Even the Flood (which comes close) spares Noah and his family.  

 

So then, if an innocent animal is adequate for all of the past sins of a nation, is not a perfect man worth the past and future sins of a chosen people?  God chooses the payment and I do not see a verse that says it must be God that is killed on the altar.  That is just how God CHOSE to handle it.

 

Show me where the Bible REQUIRES a trinity for Jesus to be the Christ (anointed) ‘passover lamb’?

Edited by atpollard

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Guest William

Awesome responses, and @Innerfire89 I'm going to remember to first establish Typology from scripture as you had in the future. Wonderful responses in this thread, a treasure for those searching for answers or wishing to plumb the depths of Scripture!

 

 

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atpollard
47 minutes ago, Innerfire89 said:

[Genesis 15:6 NKJV] “And he[Abraham] believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.”

 

Faith and not Blood has always been the ‘shibboleth’ of true righteousness.

 

I don't speak Spanish. Lol.

😀  Sometimes I speak jibberish.  Let me translate.

 

God made a promise to Abraham.

Abraham believed God even when God’s promise was physically impossible [post-menopausal women do not get pregnant].

It was not the things that Abraham did that impressed God.

It was not the animals that Abraham slaughtered and burned on altars that impressed God.

It was that Abraham BELIEVED the LORD that impressed God. 

Believing the LORD is also called “faith”.

It was not because of the blood of animal sacrifices that God declared Abraham righteous (not guilty of sin), rather it was because of Abraham’s faith that he was declared righteous.

 

This is the pattern of the Old and New Covenants.  In the Old Covenant, it was not the blood of the animal that actually cleansed the person from guilt.  That is why the poor could substitute a dove for a lamb or even a handful of grain and the sacrifice was still “a pleasing aroma to the LORD”.  It was the faith of the one making the offering that God saw and it was the blood of Christ that washed away sins.  They looked forward in faith to a coming ‘Messiah’ (anointed) and we in the New Covenant look back in faith to the death and resurrection of a ‘Christ’ (anointed) that has promised to return for us.

 

There is a story about Israel testing fleeing soldiers to see who is a true Israelite and who is an enemy soldier attempting to escape.  The test was only an Israelite could correctly pronounce the word ‘shibboleth’.  So a ‘shibboleth’ is a test for what is true or genuine.  The true test for ‘righteousness’ has never been (Old Testament or New Testament) what a person does ... like shedding the blood of animals ... the true test for ‘righteousness’ has always been faith in God.  

 

So whether the LORD accepts a dead goat and FAITH or a dead man and FAITH or a dead God Incarnate and FAITH, it still falls to our FAITH and the acceptance of the LORD.

 

I hope that makes a little more sense.

Edited by atpollard

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Ben Asher
On 9/10/2018 at 2:28 PM, Innerfire89 said:

For any non Trinitarians that might come across this I have a couple questions that I was curious to see how you would anwser.

 

If Jesus is not God, how can his sacrifice attome for the sins of all the elect? That would be one sinless life of a mere mortal, which can only purchase the redemption of one other life.

 

If Jesus is not God, why did Jesus not have to spend eternity in Hell to pay for our sins? 

 

Hope to hear some good answers soon.

 

Stay blessed.

6

Greetings Innerfire89,

 

I greatly appreciate what I believe is your attempt at starting an apologetic exchange.

However, the way the questions quoted above are worded above appears to imply a 'Hasty Generalization' or to 'beg the question'. 

 

A non-Trinitarian might, in fact, believe that Jesus was simply a mortal as the questions above implied/assume.

 

On the other hand, a non-Trinitarian might believe that Jesus is God.

 

Take for example a non-Trinitarian could hold to any of the following frameworks and accept that Jesus is God at the same time:

(a) Synonymous Modalism

(b) Successive Modalism

C) Subordinationism (in theory someone could actually hold to the Trinitarian but not the concept of equality between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)

(d) Binitarianism

(e) Tritheism

 

I like what I believe you are attempting to do,  but I believe that your question could be a lot stronger if they were worded differently/

 

Grace and Peace

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Guest Becky

a) Synonymous Modalism      ............................  I could not find this exact term via google. 

(b) Successive Modalism.................................. nor this one 

C) Subordinationism (in theory someone could actually hold to the Trinitarian but not the concept of equality between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)

(d) Binitarianism ................found this one but kinda knew what it is 

(e) Tritheism  .....in Christian theology) the doctrine of or belief in the three persons of the Trinity as three distinct gods.

 

 Not being educated has its draw backs .  I dont really like looking to google for Godly answers. An explanation like (C) was very helpful. Thanks 

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Guest William
2 hours ago, Ben Asher said:

C) Subordinationism (in theory someone could actually hold to the Trinitarian but not the concept of equality between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)

Trinitarianism rejects an ontological subordination (equal in nature and attributes) but Trinitarians do hold to an economic subordination (how each Person relates) which was adopted in the Council of Nicea.

 

Subordinationism:

 

Subordinationism is a heresy concerning the Trinity. Subordinationism (Jesus is different in nature than the Father) should not be confused with subordination (the Son submitting to the Father). Subordinationism is a heresy concerning the Father and Son though sometimes the Holy Spirit is included. The error has different forms; but it is primarily the teaching that the Son is not eternal and divine (Arian Subordinationism) and is, therefore, not equal to the Father in being and attributes. This is, of course, wrong; and it is in contrast to the biblical doctrine of the Economic Trinity (the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) which does not deny their equality of nature and attributes. Another form of Subordinationism states that though the Son is divine, he is not equal to the Father in being, attributes, and rank. This error was rejected at the Council of Nicea. Essentially, subordinationism states that the Son is inferior to the Father. - https://carm.org/subordinationism

 

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Guest Becky

Thanks @William that helps my understanding of goofy stuff a lot.  (Goofy stuff = stuff and words way over my head. Words i never knew existed )

For me the word Trinity is like this, every thing is equal.  Ask me to explain the Trinity i could not . Some things are by faith. 

 In geometry, an equilateral triangle is a triangle in which all three sides are equal. In the familiar Euclidean geometry, an equilateral triangle is also equiangular; that is, all three internal angles are also congruent to each other and are each 60°.

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Innerfire89
18 hours ago, atpollard said:

The blood of bulls achieved a Roman Catholic Confession type of forgiveness:  all of your sins up to that point are forgiven, but you WILL sin again tomorrow and those sins will need a future sacrifice to forgive them.  That is exactly what the writer of Hebrews was pointing to.  That is why he emphasized the need to offer animal sacrifices year after year.  

 

Jesus sacrifice was “better” because it covered all sins once and for all time.  One sacrifice for past and future sins.  However, who is to say that if the death of one bull is enough for the past sins of a nation, that the death of even one righteous man would not be enough of an offering to God to cover the sins of all of the elect?  It is all human logical constructs that demand that the payment equal the crime.  God, throughout the Old Testament never demands a payment in full.  Even the Flood (which comes close) spares Noah and his family.  

 

So then, if an innocent animal is adequate for all of the past sins of a nation, is not a perfect man worth the past and future sins of a chosen people?  God chooses the payment and I do not see a verse that says it must be God that is killed on the altar.  That is just how God CHOSE to handle it.

 

Show me where the Bible REQUIRES a trinity for Jesus to be the Christ (anointed) ‘passover lamb’?

Jesus could not have been rightioues without the fullness of His diety. The Bible is clear there is only one God so therefore the Trinity is the only possible way to provide attonment by the sacrifice of a man who is also God.

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Ben Asher
5 hours ago, Becky said:

a) Synonymous Modalism      ............................  I could not find this exact term via google. 

(b) Successive Modalism.................................. nor this one 

.............................................................................

 I dont really like looking to google for Godly answers. An explanation like (C) was very helpful. Thanks 

1

(1) Modalism is also known as Monarchianism, Sabellianism, or patripassianism.

 

(2) Basically,  "Modalism is the belief that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three different modes or aspects of one monadic God,"

See:

EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG

or

EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG

 

(3) "there are two types of Modalist, Synonymous and Successive. Successive means the Father, Son and Spirit exist at different points, whereas Synonymous means they exist at the same time but are not three distinct persons"

ANSWERING-JUDAISM.BLOGSPOT.COM

Itzhak Shapira is a Messianic Rabbi who runs Ahavat Ammi Ministries and is the author of the book "The Kosher Pig", a book panned by the Ort...

 

Becky thank you for your feedback/reply  I will make sure to add definitions and or links to theological terms or unusual vocabulary from now on.

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Faber
6 hours ago, Becky said:

a) Synonymous Modalism     

(b) Successive Modalism

C) Subordinationism 

(d) Binitarianism 

(e) Tritheism 

 

 Instead of asking people if they believe the Bible teaches that the Lord Jesus is God (which I often do), I think for the most part it would more decisive to ask if they believe the Bible teaches that God is a Trinity. 

 Even some New Agers might agree that the Lord Jesus is God, but this entails that He either became a G/god through some self conscious mumbo jumbo and/or that you too can become a G/god.

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Guest William
1 hour ago, Faber said:

Even some New Agers might agree that the Lord Jesus is God, but this entails that He either became a G/god through some self conscious mumbo jumbo and/or that you too can become a G/god.

I can hear them now suggest that Jesus awakened to His divinity.

 

I think a good response would be to ask them whether they believe Jesus is omniscient or immutable. If God is omniscient then how could He not know His divinity? And if God is unchanging how could He have a qulatitive change of mind, example unconscious and then conscious?

 

I think that would open the door to deep trinitarian and hypostatic union discussion.

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atpollard
2 hours ago, Innerfire89 said:

Jesus could not have been rightioues without the fullness of His diety.

Why?  

Are angels not righteous, even though they are clearly not God.

 

If God made a second Adam (literally a second man created by God) and that man chose to obey rather than disobey, would he not be righteous?

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Guest William
39 minutes ago, atpollard said:

Why?  

Are angels not righteous, even though they are clearly not God.

 

If God made a second Adam (literally a second man created by God) and that man chose to obey rather than disobey, would he not be righteous?

Jesus is the second Adam and he lacked our sin nature.

 

What made Jesus righteous? Was it His divine nature or obedience rather than disobedience to the Law?

 

Likewise, do the angels have a divine nature? If so, what of the fallen angels?

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Innerfire89
1 hour ago, atpollard said:

Why?  

Are angels not righteous, even though they are clearly not God.

 

If God made a second Adam (literally a second man created by God) and that man chose to obey rather than disobey, would he not be righteous?

Well, I ask how you interipit Matthew 26:39? Was there another possible way? Could an Angel have taken the place of Christ?

 

We would have to ignore the nature of man for your hypothetical question. You're not going pleagian are you? Lol

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Faber
1 hour ago, atpollard said:

Are angels not righteous, even though they are clearly not God.

 I think it has to do with being absolutely holy/righteous - to which God alone is (Revelation 15:4). Job 4:18 also seems to teach that angels lack what God alone is/has.

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Guest William
5 hours ago, Faber said:

 I think it has to do with being absolutely holy/righteous - to which God alone is (Revelation 15:4). Job 4:18 also seems to teach that angels lack what God alone is/has.

Lemme poke at you and put you on the spot. How would you define holy and then righteousness when pertaining to God? What's the difference?

 

If I may I understand the holiness of God as the sum of His attributes and righteousness as a single attribute. Perhaps you may wish to elaborate more though?

 

If you can bring this all back to the OP it would be most appreciated. Can salvation without the Trinity exists? I say absolutely no! To suggest otherwise would be to promote a Pelagian theology. And that's Heresy, Patrick!

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Faber

Hey William,

 Seems to be saying the same thing. I would also add the word "pure". There may be a difference though (?) Both are used of Jesus in Acts 3:14. I am not sure how one can be holy without being righteous and vice versa.

 

 Those who reject the Trinity do not have the true God of the Bible. They have a false god, and a false god can not save.

 

 

 

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atpollard

Is Abraham saved?

Is Joseph saved?

Is Moses saved?

Is David saved?

Is Daniel saved?

 

Did any of them know Jesus as Lord and Savior?

 

[Rom 10:14 NASB] 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

 

 

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Guest Becky
On 3/20/2019 at 5:48 PM, atpollard said:

Why?  

Are angels not righteous, even though they are clearly not God.

 

If God made a second Adam (literally a second man created by God) and that man chose to obey rather than disobey, would he not be righteous?

No the angels not all righteous. Isa_14:12  How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 

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atpollard
1 hour ago, Becky said:

No the angels not all righteous. Isa_14:12  How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 

The statement that I was questioning was the claim that ONLY GOD is righteous (in right standing with YHVH).

Are the 2/3 of the Angels that refused to follow Lucifer still righteous?

What about the creatures with the four faces that guard the Throne of God in the visions of Heaven?

 

Was Adam righteousness when God made him ... before the fall?

If God chose to make another man (like he made Adam) would that man be righteous?

If God had made a fully human “new Adam” Messiah, would he have been a righteous man able to die for the sins of others?

 

Why not?

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Guest Becky
12 minutes ago, atpollard said:

The statement that I was questioning was the claim that ONLY GOD is righteous (in right standing with YHVH).

Are the 2/3 of the Angels that refused to follow Lucifer still righteous?

What about the creatures with the four faces that guard the Throne of God in the visions of Heaven?

 

Was Adam righteousness when God made him ... before the fall?

If God chose to make another man (like he made Adam) would that man be righteous?

If God had made a fully human “new Adam” Messiah, would he have been a righteous man able to die for the sins of others?

 

Why not?

Ya kinda lost me .. Will you please rephrase the post.. Thanks  🙂 

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atpollard
On 3/20/2019 at 10:02 PM, Innerfire89 said:

Well, I ask how you interipit Matthew 26:39? Was there another possible way? Could an Angel have taken the place of Christ?

 

We would have to ignore the nature of man for your hypothetical question. You're not going pleagian are you? Lol

“You're not going pleagian are you? Lol”

Not Pelegian, just ‘stiff necked’.  Iron only sharpens iron if they clash ... if somebody doesn’t challenge you, then all this “patting yourself on the back for being right” lovefest will make everyone want to barf. 😝

 

HOW DO I INETPRET:

 [Matthew 26:39 NASB] 39 And He went a little beyond [them,] and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."

 

Only the LORD (YHVH) gets to set the propitiation for sin.

  • At the Passover, the blood of a lamb on the doorpost was the propitiation to avoid the curse of the last plague.
  • In the Law given to Moses for the Old Covenant, the blood of a bull or a goat or a lamb or two doves was the propitiation for sin.
  • All were a gap filler until the arrival of the promised “seed of the woman” (Genesis), “son of man” (Daniel) and Anointed (Messiah/Christ).

 Matthew 26:39 is a reminder that Jesus was a man, but that there was only one propitiation that the LORD had chosen for His Elect ... the Messiah/Christ.

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atpollard
2 minutes ago, Becky said:

Ya kinda lost me .. Will you please rephrase the post.. Thanks  🙂 

Sure, one step at a time.

 

What is “righteous”?

I was taught that it meant being in right standing with God.  

Sinners are not in right standing with God.

Lucifer is not in right standing with God.

 

Do you have a different understanding?

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Guest Becky

Jesus Christ is righteous .  We humans on our own are not righteous.  

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Guest William
54 minutes ago, atpollard said:

Sure, one step at a time.

 

What is “righteous”?

I was taught that it meant being in right standing with God.  

Sinners are not in right standing with God.

Lucifer is not in right standing with God.

 

Do you have a different understanding?

I understand righteousness as living uprightly or behaviorally before God. This is not imputed righteousness but rather is described as blamelessness.

 

When we speak of righteous it is an attribute whereas holiness is the sum of all God's attributes. However, I wouldn't go so far as to call the angels righteous in the imputed righteous sense or definition but they are holy as in "set apart" for holy use. Because a creature is righteous does not mean they do not sin. For example Adam sinned and Pastors sin etc when qualified in Timothy 3 as must being blameless or above reproach.

 

I think God's nature is divine which entails various attributes such as righteousness, love, mercy, just, etc. Nobody but God is divine and I think that's what sets God apart from the rest of His creation angels included. If for example the angels were divine none of them would ever of fallen and for that matter if Adam was truly divine by nature then he wouldn't have sinned. Adam was not righteous in this sense otherwise the 1st Adam would never of sinned. I'm speculating here because not a lot is said about Adam's prefallen nature. I think there's no doubt that Adam was made very good and was blameless etc but again he did not have the same divine nature as His creator. Otherwise, we'd be seriously considering Genesis 3:5 and Satan's doctrine.

 

3 hours ago, atpollard said:

Is Abraham saved?

Before Abraham was I am. Jesus revealed Himself directly to Abraham etc. Of course all these you listed were before Hebrews 1:1 when OT saints knew about the Messiah's coming since Genesis 3:15. What blows my mind is that Job is thought by some scholars to be older than the 5 books of Moses and Job was justified in my eyes when he said, "For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth" Job 19:25.

 

Furthermore, I just like to touch upon imputed righteousness. It is not our act of faith that Justifies us but the object of faith Jesus Christ. Abraham believed the promise of God. Was Abraham justified simply because he believed apart from the works of God? Of course not, the very promise was the works of God. Just pointing this out because some people are so bent on man centered doctrine they're always pointing to the works of man as though the act of faith in or of themselves is what justified them. It is the righteousness of Christ imputed to the faithful that is credited them before God for that very right standing before Him.
 

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