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Poll Question: The Rich man and Lazarus Parable or Not?

Poll Question: The Rich man and Lazarus  

35 members have voted

  1. 1. Is the the Rich man and Lazarus a parable?



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Faber
23 minutes ago, Goth Explorer said:

I don't know where you get the heaven from regarding Lazarus, but he is not in heaven.  How many Bible translations use the word heaven?

 

Also, the people in Revelation have been killed, yes, but we are not told that they are in heaven.  You assume that.

 

As an aside, I have researched the difference between heaven and paradise in The Bible, but gave up because I could not make sense of it.  But I don't think they are the same place or the same thing.

 If Lazarus and Abraham are not in heaven then where are they?

 

 The believers mentioned in Revelation 6:9-11 have already died and when a believer dies they go to heaven. I already gave a link with information that backs this up.

 

 In terms of your research did you notice that the third heaven (where God is) is equated with Paradise (2 Corinthians 12:2-4)?

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Goth Explorer
12 hours ago, Faber said:

 If Lazarus and Abraham are not in heaven then where are they?

 

 The believers mentioned in Revelation 6:9-11 have already died and when a believer dies they go to heaven. I already gave a link with information that backs this up.

 

 In terms of your research did you notice that the third heaven (where God is) is equated with Paradise (2 Corinthians 12:2-4)?

If they are not in heaven, then they are somewhere else.  The fact that I cannot clearly identify this other place is not the point.  The point is that this is a parable, and one which Jesus never explained.

 

Believers do go to heaven when they die, but not immediately.  Judgment comes first.  The believers in Revelation 6 appear to be in a pre-judgment situation.

 

Please feel free to check all of the references to heaven and paradise in The Bible, and make sense of them.  I cannot.  If the third heaven is paradise, then what about the first and second heavens?  Is there a fourth heaven?

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Faber
1 hour ago, Goth Explorer said:

If the third heaven is paradise, then what about the first and second heavens?  Is there a fourth heaven?

Albert Barnes: But the Bible speaks of but three heavens, and among the Jews in the apostolic ages also the heavens were divided into three:

(1) The aerial, including the clouds and the atmosphere, the heavens above us, until we come to the stars.

(2) the starry heavens, the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars appear to be situated.

(3) the heavens beyond the stars. That heaven was supposed to be the residence of God, of angels, and of holy spirits. It was this upper heaven, the dwelling-place of God, to which Paul was taken, and whose wonders he was permitted to behold - this region where God dwelt; where Christ was seated at the right hand of the Father, and where the spirits of the just were assembled. 

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/bnb/2-corinthians-12.html

 

Corresponding to the numbers above:

       1. The sky (Deuteronomy 11:11).          
       2. The sun, moon and stars (Genesis 1:14-18).          
       3. Where God dwells (Isaiah 63:15).

 

 Since Paul was caught up int the 3rd heaven demonstrates that Paradise is the same thing as heaven. Indeed, heaven is called "the Paradise of God" (Revelation 2:7).

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Goth Explorer

To be fair, that is a much better answer than I was expecting, but I will quibble on one point.

 

How do you reconcile your previous comment with John 3:13?  No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven – the Son of Man.

 

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Faber

Albert Barnes: This does not mean that no one had Gone to heaven or had been saved, for Enoch and Elijah had been borne there (Genesis 5:24; compare Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11); and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and others were there: but it means that no one had ascended and “returned,” so as to be qualified to speak of the things there.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/bnb/john-3.html

 

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Trevor

Hi everyone,

 

I am not quite sure whether it is a parable or story, but is there a spiritual application we can get from the passage anyway?

 

I for one, would not want to be the rich man. He seemed to be quite pitiful because he was not on the right side of things and seemed he would have done things much differently during his time on earth, if he had a second chance.

 

In peace and Christian love,

Trevor

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Innerfire89

I just don't know.

But the parables of Jesus always used actual things in a story to teach. I don't think Jesus made up a fictional world  with differnt rules from reality to convey spiritual truth, that is if it is a parable.

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Hieronymus

Hi,

If i remember correctly, the story, or at least the theme was borrowed from folklore, and used and adapted to convey a message.

It's one of the passages that is used in the case for eternal life in hellfire.

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Guest William
7 hours ago, Hieronymus said:

Hi,

If i remember correctly, the story, or at least the theme was borrowed from folklore, and used and adapted to convey a message.

It's one of the passages that is used in the case for eternal life in hellfire.

Could you please elaborate? The only thing I could think of is you're referring to Hades in Geek mythology.

 

If you're suggesting that Jesus borrowed from folklore, I ask that you please provide sources and dates of said folklore.

 

If I am correct what you are suggesting is a pretty popular belief about Hades.

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Hieronymus

I thought i'd just mention it, t.b.h.

It was explained like that, i believe by Micheal Heiser.

Could be from a Rethinking Hell lecture too.

Sorry i have no follow up info..

I'll try a search engine.

Hope i can find more.

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Guest
2 hours ago, Hieronymus said:

Well, that was easier to find than i expected:

WWW.TRUTHACCORDINGTOSCRIPTURE.COM

In the Rich Man and Lazarus, Jesus merely used a story current in their...

 

One of the worst things I have ever read on the topic.

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Hieronymus
Just now, Origen said:

One of the worst things I have ever read on the topic.

 Did you read the whole thing?

The relevant portion starts about half way.

Most scholars seem to agree, as referenced in there.

 

Can you share why you find it "one of the worst things" ?

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Guest
30 minutes ago, Hieronymus said:

Did you read the whole thing?

Yes

 

30 minutes ago, Hieronymus said:

Can you share why you find it "one of the worst things" ?

Where to start?  Zero qualifications of the author in any area of study related to the topic, use of out dated sources, poor argumentation, and factual errors

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Hieronymus

What factual errors?

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Guest
2 hours ago, Hieronymus said:

What factual errors?

Rather than me simply telling you perhaps you ought to check out "Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades" and see for yourself.

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Hieronymus

Perhaps you ought to pop me a link then.

 

Hades is a Greek pagan concept.

Edited by Hieronymus

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Guest
52 minutes ago, Hieronymus said:

Perhaps you ought to pop me a link then.

 

Hades is a Greek pagan concept.

I don't do research for others.  I point them in the right direction.  What they do after that is their choice.  If you are unwilling to seek factual information concerning "Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades," and the errors made by the author of the article concerning the discourse, it does not matter to me.

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Hieronymus

A link would have been helpful though.

But i'll Google it myself then.

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Hieronymus

Okay Origen, there's indeed more to it than i thought.

It'll take some time for me to figure things out further.

 

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Guest
15 minutes ago, Hieronymus said:

Okay Origen, there's indeed more to it than i thought.

It'll take some time for me to figure things out further.

Thank you Jerome.  That was very nice of you.

 

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Guest theophilus
13 hours ago, Hieronymus said:

Hades is a Greek pagan concept.

But where did the Greeks get the concept?  Immediately after the Flood, when Noah and his family were the only humans, there was a universal knowledge of God.  As people spread through the earth many forgot the truth and followed errors they had made up, but most of them retained some truth.  If a pagan belief is found in the Bible, it doesn't mean the Bible got the belief from the pagans, but that that belief was a truth that the pagans had retained.  

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Hieronymus
15 hours ago, theophilus said:

But where did the Greeks get the concept?  Immediately after the Flood, when Noah and his family were the only humans, there was a universal knowledge of God.  As people spread through the earth many forgot the truth and followed errors they had made up, but most of them retained some truth.  If a pagan belief is found in the Bible, it doesn't mean the Bible got the belief from the pagans, but that that belief was a truth that the pagans had retained.  

Not necessarily.

Let's not forget that YHWH chose his people well after the flood.

So yes, there already were religious concepts people were familiar with, but not so much of YHWH.

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Guest William
22 minutes ago, Hieronymus said:

Not necessarily.

Let's not forget that YHWH chose his people well after the flood.

So yes, there already were religious concepts people were familiar with, but not so much of YHWH.

It would help if you actually referenced Scripture.

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Hieronymus
2 hours ago, William said:

It would help if you actually referenced Scripture.

Regarding what?

Or in general?

Edited by Hieronymus

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