Jump to content

SovereignGraceSingles

Welcome to SovereignGraceSingles.com. Where Reformed Faith and Romance Come Together! We are the only Christian dating website for Christian Singles in the Reformed Faith worldwide. Our focus is to bring together Christian singles of all ages. Reformed single Christian men and women who wish to meet other Reformed Christian singles for spiritually, like-minded, loving relationships.
Join us now

SovereignGraceSingles

Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” - Genesis 2:18
Join us now

SovereignGraceSingles

Meet Like Minded Believers Can two walk together except they be agreed? - Amos 3:3
Join us now

SovereignGraceSingles

John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
Join us now

SovereignGraceSingles

SGS offers a "fenced" community: both for private single members and also a public Protestant forums open to Bible-believing Christians such as Presbyterians, Lutherans, Reformed, Baptists, Church of Christ members, Pentecostals, Anglicans. Methodists, Charismatics, or any other conservative, Nicene-derived Christian Church.
Join us now
Guest

Poll Question: The Rich man and Lazarus Parable or Not?

Poll Question: The Rich man and Lazarus  

35 members have voted

  1. 1. Is the the Rich man and Lazarus a parable?



Recommended Posts

Guest theophilus

Here is a post on this subject that I found on another Christian forum.

 

Quote

Fiction can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that, though untrue; are plausible; viz: realistic.

Fantasy can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that are not only untrue; but implausible; viz: unrealistic.

For example: a story about a wooden boy like Pinocchio is unrealistic; while a story about a boy with autism is realistic. The difference between Pinocchio and the autistic boy is that the one is compatible with normal reality; while the other is far removed from normal reality.

I have yet to read even one of Jesus Christ's parables that could not possibly be a real-life story. They're all actually quite believable-- banquets, stewards, weddings, farmers sowing seed, pearls, lost sheep, fish nets, women losing coins, sons leaving home, wineskins bursting, tares among the wheat, leavened bread, barren fig trees, the blind leading the blind, et al.

Now; if Christ had told one that alleged the moon was made of green cheese; we would have good reason to believe that at least that one was fantasy; but none of them are like that. No; there's nothing out of the ordinary in his parables. At best; Christ's parables might qualify as fiction; but never fantasy because none of them are so far removed from the normal round of human experience that they have no basis in reality whatsoever.

Luke 16:19-31 is commonly alleged to be a parable; which of course implies that the story is fiction; and some would even say fantasy. But the parable theory has a fatal flaw. Abraham is not a fictional character: he's a real-life man; the father of the Hebrew people, held in very high esteem by at least three of the world's prominent religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. And he's also the friend of God (Isa 41:8). I simply cannot believe that Jesus Christ-- a man famous among normal Christians for his honesty and integrity --would say something untrue about a famous real-life man; especially about one of his Father's buddies.

And on top of that, the story quotes Abraham a number of times. Well; if the story is fiction, then Jesus Christ is on record testifying that Abraham said things that he didn't really say; which is a clear violation of the commandment that prohibits bearing false witness.

There is something else to consider.

The story of the rich man and Lazarus didn't originate with Jesus Christ. No, it originated with his Father. In other words: Jesus Christ was micro-managed.

● John 3:34 . . He is sent by God. He speaks God's words

● John 8:26 . . He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of Him.

● John 8:28 . . I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught me.

● John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

● John 14:24 . .The word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.

So, by alleging that Luke 16:19-31 is fiction/fantasy, the parable theory slanders God by insinuating that He's a person of marginal integrity who can't be trusted to tell the truth about people, not even about His own friends, which is ridiculous seeing as how Titus 1:2 and Heb 6:18 testify that God cannot lie.

God's impeccable character is what makes that narrative all the more terrifying. Unless somebody can prove, beyond a shadow of sensible doubt, that Christ's Father is a tale-spinner; I pretty much have to assume the narrative was drawn from real-life; and if not drawn from real life, then at least based upon real life.

In other words: there really is an afterlife place of conscious suffering where people endure unbearable anxiety worrying their loved ones are on a road to where they are and there is no way to warn them; similar to the survivors of the Titanic watching their loved ones go to Davy Jones while utterly helpless to do anything about it.

People for whom I feel the most pity are parents that brought up their children in a religion whose pot at the end of the rainbow is filled with molten sulfur instead of gold. How do people bear up under something like that on their conscience?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
On 4/6/2019 at 8:32 AM, theophilus said:

Here is a post on this subject that I found on another Christian forum.

It sets up a false dichotomy.

Share this post


Link to post
Mikey

Since the Book of Revelation describes Abraham's Bosom and those that are there, I would say it doesn't matter.

 

It's Truth regardless...

 

mhp-0832.png.3ad6226631cc99b9add34d390d6403b4.png

  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Solas

Define: Parable   🙂  (hint: not a pair o' bulls 🐂🐂).

Edited by Solas

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
On 5/10/2019 at 11:50 PM, Mikey said:

Since the Book of Revelation describes Abraham's Bosom and those that are there, I would say it doesn't matter.

 

It's Truth regardless...

mhp-0832.png.3ad6226631cc99b9add34d390d6403b4.png

The Book of Revelation does not describes Abraham's Bosom.  Such an interpretation has no foundation in reality.  Your claim is pure nonsense.

Share this post


Link to post
HisNameJesus

I recently got into a discussion about this with somebody of Unitarian leanings that made a couple outrageous claims, and the error of leaning upon his own understandings. He was, as if, tearing pages from the Bible, including blaspheming the God of scripture, while, at the same time, calling himself a Christian? Without going into all that, it came up that the rich man and Lazarus is simply a parable.What I’d most like to express is the view that some things come down to common sense.

 

You of the Spirit, that have long studied the Holy Bible, must be struck by how amazing the teachings of the Lord Jesus are, in the smallest details deep truths, as well as knowing we are speaking of God in the flesh when He walked this earth, a Man of sinless, absolute holiness and truth, His teachings most accurate, and His parables perfection in their application to Christian doctrine. This Man Jesus, God, was of the Spirit, without measure. So here is the common sense.

 

Were the parable of the rich man and Lazarus simply a parable, it would be a terrible and misleading parable, would, as some “Christian” cults claim, have established a false doctrine there is a hell of torment. The Lord Jesus would have to apologize for teaching such a wholly inaccurate parable: to say there is no rich man in torment is like saying the Lord Jesus, God, mind you, is making stuff up that has no real doctrinal truth and application in eternity, is impossible to explain in its detail where the truth is, without apologetic double talk of some sort, and how, again, it helped to therefore establish a false doctrine of a hell of torment. Were this the case, it would also make the Lord Jesus a liar, whether intentionally or not, but, for whatever reason, a misleading, false prophet. It’s common sense those things cannot be true, and we know the Holy Spirit inspired word of God is 100% truth and accurate, that the God that created the vast universe is well capable of authoring an accurate book. Otherwise, how could He even hold people responsible for the truth, if we had to look at scripture and try to sort what’s truth, and this an impossible task, therefore? This is what makes no sense, a parable that misses the boat where truth is concerned, and, what do you know, this also what the devil would love to float, as he did in the Garden, the concept, “God has said, but…” And how much would the devil like people to believe there's no hell of torment, that there's nothing to fear? What a coincidence such thinking makes continuing in sin more an option.

 

In closing, here are some other verses about hell, without any cultish commentary of man, which should lead the reader to just how much the rich man and Lazarus is no parable, that there is a hell, that it is terrible, and that one cannot simply say there’s nothing literal in these verses, either:

 

Matthew 13:40-42 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

Matthew 25:41,46 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels... And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

 

Mark 9:42-48 But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched, where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.' And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched, where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.' And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire, where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'

 

Revelation 14:9-11 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receives the mark of his name.

 

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

Luke 12:4-5 And I say to you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
 

Share this post


Link to post
E Morales

Is the the Rich man and Lazarus a parable? 

 

The Lord spoke to His people in parables, for they did not have the bible like we do today. For they and myself did not have the education that you guys have.  I Voted yes to parables, this is not a trick question.

Share this post


Link to post
Matthew A.Duvall
On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 7:59 AM, Goth Explorer said:

It is definitely a parable.  It does not make sense any other way.

 

The trouble is that Jesus did not interpret this parable, or if he did then his interpretation was not recorded.

 

I read once that it is a parable which predicts the diaspora.  The rich man is symbolic of Jews, and the poor man is symbolic of gentiles - or at least some gentiles.

If this is a parable then why didn't Jesus mention proper names in His other " parables " ? No, this is a perfect illustration ,using actual facts pertaining to what happened to someone who died before Jesus went to the cross  .  Abraham's bosom no longer exist because the act of redemption was completed with the death of Christ . Now when a redeemed person in Christ dies they go directly into the presence of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God . There is more to add to this subject, but for now people should  view this as a monumental event.   M

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Matthew A.Duvall
On 5/10/2019 at 11:50 PM, Mikey said:

Since the Book of Revelation describes Abraham's Bosom and those that are there, I would say it doesn't matter.

 

It's Truth regardless...

 

mhp-0832.png.3ad6226631cc99b9add34d390d6403b4.png

Where in the book of Revelation does it describe Abraham's Bosom ? Hint; Abraham's Bosom was vacated by genuine believers when Jesus uttered HIs last words while on the cross.... "It is finished ". John 19:30 . Abraham's Bosom no longer exist . Only Hades is occupied by  all of those who died in their sins and are awaiting the Day Of Judgment . All true believers are in the presence of God enjoying only a small portion of their eternal inheritance . They will be judged according to their works while the unbelieving are being  judged according to their sins .        M

Share this post


Link to post
islandrazor

If hell is truly as it is pictured in this story, then the saved will be able to view the lost who are burning there. Could anyone enjoy eternal existence if they were able to see lost friends, family, and acquaintances being incinerated in hell, yet never burning up?

 

Christ says that first, Lazarus dies and is taken to the bosom of Abraham. Strongs: G2859 bosom, creek. the front of the body between the arms the bosom of a garment, i.e. the hollow formed by the upper forepart of a rather loose garment bound by a girdle or sash, used for keeping and carrying things (the fold or pocket) A bay of the sea.

Usage;

Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. G2859 For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Acts, 27:39 And when it was day, they knew not the land: but they discovered a certain creek G2859 with a shore, into the which they were minded, if it were possible, to thrust in the ship.

 

If this story is literal, then we have a contradiction in the Bible. Here, Lazarus is shown to have immediately received the promise of eternal life. Yet the author of Hebrews clearly tells us that Abraham, as well as all the other Old Testament saints, have not yet received the promises given to them by God.

HEBREWS 11:13 All these, Abraham, Noah, Abel, etc. died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth … 39 And all these including Abraham, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,

40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

They saw the promises when they lived, They had not received them at the time of Pauls writing of Hebrews.

When Christ returns, the dead in Christ shall rise.

 

In Christ

Share this post


Link to post
Faber
1 hour ago, islandrazor said:

Could anyone enjoy eternal existence if they were able to see lost friends, family, and acquaintances being incinerated in hell, yet never burning up?

 

 I think when Christians go home (to heaven) then they will have a far greater understanding and appreciation of the absolute holiness of God. So yes, their knowledge and appreciation of who God is (Luke 1:49; Revelation 15:4) would cause them to appreciate and be more persuaded of God's justice being meted out on the unrepentant.

Share this post


Link to post
Matthew A.Duvall
2 hours ago, islandrazor said:

If hell is truly as it is pictured in this story, then the saved will be able to view the lost who are burning there. Could anyone enjoy eternal existence if they were able to see lost friends, family, and acquaintances being incinerated in hell, yet never burning up?

 

Christ says that first, Lazarus dies and is taken to the bosom of Abraham. Strongs: G2859 bosom, creek. the front of the body between the arms the bosom of a garment, i.e. the hollow formed by the upper forepart of a rather loose garment bound by a girdle or sash, used for keeping and carrying things (the fold or pocket) A bay of the sea.

Usage;

Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. G2859 For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Acts, 27:39 And when it was day, they knew not the land: but they discovered a certain creek G2859 with a shore, into the which they were minded, if it were possible, to thrust in the ship.

 

If this story is literal, then we have a contradiction in the Bible. Here, Lazarus is shown to have immediately received the promise of eternal life. Yet the author of Hebrews clearly tells us that Abraham, as well as all the other Old Testament saints, have not yet received the promises given to them by God.

HEBREWS 11:13 All these, Abraham, Noah, Abel, etc. died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth … 39 And all these including Abraham, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,

40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

They saw the promises when they lived, They had not received them at the time of Pauls writing of Hebrews.

When Christ returns, the dead in Christ shall rise.

 

In Christ

So what is your point ? Confused ??  M :classic_blink:

Share this post


Link to post
islandrazor

 

2 hours ago, Matthew A.Duvall said:

So what is your point ? Confused ??  M :classic_blink:

Abraham has not received the promise of resurrection to eternal life.

Heb, 11:39 And all these including Abraham, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

 

Scripture is about eternal life in Heaven, through the work of Christ. That is the principle promise. Without conquering death, other promises relate to life on earth. Abraham is sleeping. Christ came to destroy death, to permanently redeem us.

Rom, 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

 

1 Cor, 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

 

1 Thes 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

Acts, 1:9 Christ ascended alone. Disciples watched. "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight."

Christ did not send Abraham and whoever some wish to conjecture ahead with a directive to proceed and that He'd catch up after speaking with His disciples. He ascended alone, the disciples watched.

 

Rom, 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

3 hours ago, Faber said:

 

 

3 hours ago, Faber said:

 

 I think when Christians go home (to heaven) then they will have a far greater understanding and appreciation of the absolute holiness of God. So yes, their knowledge and appreciation of who God is (Luke 1:49; Revelation 15:4) would cause them to appreciate and be more persuaded of God's justice being meted out on the unrepentant.

I’m certain we will know more then, and those are good scriptures, But how does either one of them relate to Abraham’s bosom or my question?

Share this post


Link to post
Guest William
1 hour ago, islandrazor said:

 

Abraham has not received the promise of resurrection to eternal life.

Heb, 11:39 And all these including Abraham, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

 

Scripture is about eternal life in Heaven, through the work of Christ. That is the principle promise. Without conquering death, other promises relate to life on earth. Abraham is sleeping. Christ came to destroy death, to permanently redeem us.

Rom, 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

 

1 Cor, 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

 

1 Thes 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

Acts, 1:9 Christ ascended alone. Disciples watched. "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight."

Christ did not send Abraham and whoever some wish to conjecture ahead with a directive to proceed and that He'd catch up after speaking with His disciples. He ascended alone, the disciples watched.

 

Rom, 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

I’m certain we will know more then, and those are good scriptures, But how does either one of them relate to Abraham’s bosom or my question?

So where are Enoch, Abraham, Moses, etc? Pretty bold statement and in direct opposition to both the Apostles and Athanasian Creeds. 

4 hours ago, Faber said:

 

 I think when Christians go home (to heaven) then they will have a far greater understanding and appreciation of the absolute holiness of God. So yes, their knowledge and appreciation of who God is (Luke 1:49; Revelation 15:4) would cause them to appreciate and be more persuaded of God's justice being meted out on the unrepentant.

Is heaven our final destination or temporary?

Share this post


Link to post
Faber
5 hours ago, William said:

Is heaven our final destination or temporary?

 

 It is our final destination. I think new Jerusalem is an extension of heaven in that the citizenship of believers is heaven (Philippians 3:20) and yet they will dwell in the new Jerusalem where God and the Lamb are the temple (Revelation 21:22).

7 hours ago, islandrazor said:

I’m certain we will know more then, and those are good scriptures, But how does either one of them relate to Abraham’s bosom or my question?

 

They don't, but they do answer your question as to how believers can enjoy eternal existence knowing that there are people they may know are suffering the consequences of their unbelief.

Share this post


Link to post
islandrazor
8 hours ago, William said:

So where are Enoch, Abraham, Moses, etc? Pretty bold statement and in direct opposition to both the Apostles and Athanasian Creeds. 

Is heaven our final destination or temporary?

Enoch we know never died. Moses appeared with Christ. Not sure what that suggests. Abraham hasn't received the promise yet.

 No it is not in opposition to the apostles. Paul wrote Hebrews and much of the other scripture I referenced.

 

Sorry William, I can not definitively answer that. Faber is correct in his belief that we’ll better understand then. “We shall know as we are known.” For at this juncture, in this temple of flesh, I see through a glass darkly. What I read in scripture is this, They died. They sleep. The dead shall rise.

It is inherently instilled in men to be curious, we desire to know, so we surmise. We conjure at times, when left with no concrete answer, some sense of rational explanation. Our best guess.

 

So, I’ll give it a shot.

When we think of death, it is difficult not to think of it as being without consciousness. So we assign the ability to cerebrate, cognate, to a soul without a mind, which is by nature the very faculty by which we are enabled with these functions. Scripture tells us the dead shall rise, I’ve always understood “dead,” as I believe the majority of men throughout history have, including men in scripture, as thus, unaware, unconscious, deep sleep. A return to dust. That’s what it says, this is what we’ve witnessed. Perhaps many, as the Sadducee's believed, also believe that’s it cooked, done, erased. No resurrection. No life beyond the grave.

 

Christ’s mission was to redeem His creation. God created man to share in His bounty, to be loved for eternity and to love in return. To be one with Him In a place we can not imagine. What did God tell Adam? “You will die if you eat that fruit.” Paul states, “death came by one, so shall life come by one.” (Paraphrased) Again, prior to creation God/Christ knew man with his essential ability to choose, would sometimes choose wrong. So, a plan was put into effect, one that had a specific time frame, a foreseen number, and details as to when and how all things were to occur.

 

We were held in bondage by death, so death must be overcome. We were taken captive when Adam sinned by the curse of death. We were captured, prisoners, God’s plan thwarted by a clever, rebellious angel. What that rebel may not have known, was that God already had a plan for redemption. He had a redeemer, a way to restore souls and this time give them a new, eternal body that cannot be destroyed. Now that, in my opinion is what was foreordained. Gods provision.

 

He really made/makes it easy for us. To me it seems impossible to not completely love Him. It floors me sometimes. I laugh, shake my head in awe, and give thanks. God is great.

 

These exercises, these excursions into God’s Word we take remind me of children wrestling on the lawn. We are strengthened in our ability to understand and define what it is we believe. As we increase in knowledge our capacity to defend our faith increases. But, that isn’t the jewel. That to me, is that it brings me closer to God. So clear answers on some things, I’d love them. I will continue to “search the scripture.” Though some may have to wait, and when I get there I’m of the mind, they will not be on my mind.

Final answer. Old testament faithful along with dead new testament faithful will rise first. Then those alive will be caught up. Where they are? Dead, asleep. I have no desire to assign them some obscure, conjectured drunk tank for the lost, or fields of pretty flowers for the found.

 

In Christ

 

The Athanasian Creed, also known as Pseudo-Athanasian Creed or Quicunque Vult (also Quicumque Vult), is a Christian statement of belief focused on Trinitarian doctrine and Christology. The Latin name of the creed, Quicunque vult, is taken from the opening words, "Whosoever wishes". The creed has been used by Christian churches since the sixth century. It is the first creed in which the equality of the three persons of the Trinity is explicitly stated. It differs from the Nicene-Constantinopolitan and Apostles' Creeds in the inclusion of anathemas, or condemnations of those who disagree with the creed (like the original Nicene Creed).

Widely accepted among Western Christians, including the Roman Catholic Church and some Anglican churches, Lutheran churches (it is considered part of Lutheran confessions in the Book of Concord), and ancient, liturgical churches generally, the Athanasian Creed has been used in public worship less and less frequently, but part of it can be found as an "Authorized Affirmation of Faith" in the recent (2000) Common Worship liturgy of the Church of England, in the Main Volume, on page 145.[1][2]

It was designed to distinguish Nicene Christianity from the heresy of Arianism. Liturgically, this Creed was recited at the Sunday Office of Prime in the Western Church; it is not in common use in the Eastern Church. The creed has never gained acceptance in liturgy among Eastern Christians since it was considered as one of many unorthodox fabrications that contained the Filioque clause. Today, the Athanasian Creed is rarely used even in the Western Church. When used, one common practice is to use it once a year on Trinity Sunday.[3]

 

I know it's just wikipedia, but hmm. Perhaps at some point I will look into some early catholic beliefs. For this however I used scripture. As evidenced in my writing, I'm a firm believer in the trinity. That seems self evident.

 

In Christ

Share this post


Link to post
islandrazor

The text of the Athanasian Creed

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

Share this post


Link to post
Guest

Who is the author of the book of Hebrews?  There have been many suggestions over the years.  I have listed only 5 but there have been others.

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
9 hours ago, islandrazor said:

Paul wrote Hebrews

 

Share this post


Link to post
islandrazor
9 hours ago, Origen said:

 

 

I just saw that. Give me five minutes my friend and I'll have an answer. Been up since 1:30, It's 5:00 so gonna be another long day.

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
Just now, islandrazor said:

I just saw that. Give me five minutes my friend and I'll have an answer. Been up since 1:30, It's 5:00 so gonna be another long day.

Take your time.  I just posted the poll this morning.  You gave me the idea for the poll.

Share this post


Link to post
Guest theophilus
7 hours ago, Faber said:
13 hours ago, William said:

Is heaven our final destination or temporary?

 

 It is our final destination.

Our final destination is the new earth.  God created earth as a home for men and he will fulfill his purpose.  Because sin entered the human race only those who have been born again will live on earth.  Because sin has corrupted the earth a new earth must be created to be our final home.

Share this post


Link to post
Just Mike
On 9/28/2019 at 9:36 AM, Origen said:

Who is the author of the book of Hebrews?  There have been many suggestions over the years.  I have listed only 5 but there have been others.

        With many well educated Biblical scholars expressing their opinion as to who wrote Hebrews, it still ends up with we really don't know. My thinking is with the tight circle of New Testament writers and their close proximity to Jesus, in my humble opinion there is the likelihood that perhaps of one of the disciples being the author of Hebrews is my best closest guest. For now God has let this remain a secret.

.       There are some Biblical scholars that have differing opinions as to who wrote a few of the Gospels, so is it any wonder the book of Hebrews holds such a wonderful wonder as to who wrote it. So for now only the author and finisher of our faith holds the answer to all our questions, Duet. 29:29.

Share this post


Link to post
Guest William
On 9/28/2019 at 8:36 AM, Origen said:

Who is the author of the book of Hebrews?  There have been many suggestions over the years.  I have listed only 5 but there have been others.

There was a government surveillance program or system which could capture various data about a person. Things such as voice, patterns of speech, how they wrote, behavior etc could be searched throughout cell phone networks and the internet to identify a person. The analytical results were given in probability. 

 

Wouldn't mind Hebrews as well as other books of the Bible being run into such program as this:

 

EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG

 

WWW.GLOBALRESEARCH.CA

Before PRISM there was ECHELON: the top secret surveillance program whose "dictionaries" (computers powered by complex algorithms) ingest...

 

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...
Articles - News