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Poll Question: The Rich man and Lazarus Parable or Not?

Poll Question: The Rich man and Lazarus  

35 members have voted

  1. 1. Is the the Rich man and Lazarus a parable?



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Matthew A.Duvall
1 hour ago, William said:

There allegedly was a government surveillance software or system in placed which could capture various data about a person. Things such as voice patterns, of speech, how they wrote, behavior etc  could searched throughout cell phone networks and the internet to identify a person. The analytical results were given in probability. 

 

Wouldn't mind Hebrews as well as other books of the Bible being run into such program as this:

 

EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG

 

WWW.GLOBALRESEARCH.CA

Before PRISM there was ECHELON: the top secret surveillance program whose "dictionaries" (computers powered by complex algorithms) ingest...

 

 

On ‎4‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 10:07 AM, Origen said:

It sets up a false dichotomy.

Hummmm ! :classic_unsure:

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Matthew A.Duvall
On ‎9‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 7:11 PM, islandrazor said:

If hell is truly as it is pictured in this story, then the saved will be able to view the lost who are burning there. Could anyone enjoy eternal existence if they were able to see lost friends, family, and acquaintances being incinerated in hell, yet never burning up?

 

Christ says that first, Lazarus dies and is taken to the bosom of Abraham. Strongs: G2859 bosom, creek. the front of the body between the arms the bosom of a garment, i.e. the hollow formed by the upper forepart of a rather loose garment bound by a girdle or sash, used for keeping and carrying things (the fold or pocket) A bay of the sea.

Usage;

Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. G2859 For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Acts, 27:39 And when it was day, they knew not the land: but they discovered a certain creek G2859 with a shore, into the which they were minded, if it were possible, to thrust in the ship.

 

If this story is literal, then we have a contradiction in the Bible. Here, Lazarus is shown to have immediately received the promise of eternal life. Yet the author of Hebrews clearly tells us that Abraham, as well as all the other Old Testament saints, have not yet received the promises given to them by God.

HEBREWS 11:13 All these, Abraham, Noah, Abel, etc. died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth … 39 And all these including Abraham, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,

40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

They saw the promises when they lived, They had not received them at the time of Pauls writing of Hebrews.

When Christ returns, the dead in Christ shall rise.

 

In Christ

We are talking of two entirely different places here . The rich man died and went to Hades. A place for temporal punishment . Lazarus died and went to Abraham's bosom . The two were essentially located where the rich man could see and converse with both Lazarus and Abraham. The dividing point was a Great Gulf Fixed that prevented any occupants of Hades from entering into Abraham's bosom. And of course we are familiar with the conversation between the rich man and Abraham when the rich man sought the favor of Abraham to send Lazarus to his five brothers to inform them of the torments of Hades. An impossible mission because we are told that "They had Moses and the prophets and if they didn't believe them then how could they believe one that returned from the dead ? " Abraham's bosom was vacated when the redemptive work of Christ was finished and "Corruption put on incorruption." !st.Cor.15:42 ff..  Hades still exist to this day and will be that way  until the Great Day of God Almighty when all occupants that are there in their sins will be resurrected to stand in The Judgment. Upon being judged they will be casted into the eternal   abode of everlasting Hell.

Hebrews 11:13 ff. speaks for itself. " These all died in faith ,not having received the promises , but having seen them afar off were assured of them ,embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth...……..  I don't see a problem with this .We "could" ask the question, 'where are these people now ?'

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Guest theophilus
On 10/3/2019 at 6:26 PM, Matthew A.Duvall said:

Lazarus died and went to Abraham's bosom

This simply means that he went to where Abraham was.  The ESV translation of Luke 16:22,23 says, "The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side."  The fact that they could talk to the rich man shows that they were in Hades just as he was, although they were in a different part.  The Old Testament speaks of Sheol as the place where both the righteous and the unrighteous go at death.  In the New Testament this place is called Hades.  The death of Jesus opened the way for the righteous to go to Heaven, or Paradise, when they die.

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Guest William
2 minutes ago, theophilus said:

Heaven, or Paradise

Which is it. Are they are the same place?

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Guest theophilus
6 minutes ago, William said:

Which is it. Are they are the same place?

2 Corinthians 12:2,3 says, " I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.  And I know that this man was caught up into paradise."  Either they are the same place or paradise is located in Heaven.

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Guest William
4 minutes ago, theophilus said:

2 Corinthians 12:2,3 says, " I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.  And I know that this man was caught up into paradise."  Either they are the same place or paradise is located in Heaven.

Is that where all unbelieving Jews are now which have died until this day in unbelief? 

 

I'm blending two responses of yours made in two threads [polling].

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Guest theophilus
3 minutes ago, William said:

Is that where all unbelieving Jews are now which have died until this day in unbelief?

All who have died in unbelief, whether Jew or gentile, are now in Hades.  They will remain there until the final judgment when they will be thrown into the lake of fire.

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Guest William
Just now, theophilus said:

All who have died in unbelief, whether Jew or gentile, are now in Hades.  They will remain there until the final judgment when they will be thrown into the lake of fire.

So there's no clause or secondary plan for unbelieving Jews which have died in unbelief? 

 

How are you not contradicting your own theology?

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Guest theophilus
8 minutes ago, William said:

So there's no clause or secondary plan for unbelieving Jews which have died in unbelief? 

 

How are you not contradicting your own theology?

The way of salvation is the same for everyone.  I don't see that this contradicts anything I have said.

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Guest William
44 minutes ago, theophilus said:

The way of salvation is the same for everyone.  I don't see that this contradicts anything I have said.

You don't see a contradiction in pointing out that Abraham's children are saved by blood descent [you state that God has a plan] and that unbelievers by blood descent are going to hell? Every unbelieving Jew according to what you stated is in Hell awaiting final judgment. 

 

Is that God's plan for the unbelieving Jewish people? 

 

Look, brother, the only difference between those modern adherents of Judaism and Islam is one is more friendly than the other. 

 

To teach that Jesus' mother was either raped or committed fornication as well as Jesus not being the Messiah deserves our allegiance? Sounds more like Muhammad to me. 

 

You know, Martin Luther wrote a book called "The Jews and their Lies". Granted Luther recanted some material but I empathize with his frustrations. Christians which should be evangelizing are instead sending people to pledge a misplaced political loyalty for a religious loyalty to the enemies of our faith. 

Dispensationalism is a transport that leads to this wrong reasoning behind the misplaced loyalty. 

 

Granted, Jews ushered both Jews and Gentiles into the church as well as Jews being among the first to migrate into and establish the church. To reject the church as the faithful remnant known as Israel flies in the face of who they were, are, and more to come as well as what they taught. The church encompasses the state of Israel only consisting of the faithful remnant both Jew and Gentile which identify as neither but "IN CHRIST".  There is only one body! And that is the church of Christ [true Israel].

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Antus67
On 10/3/2019 at 5:26 PM, Matthew A.Duvall said:

We are talking of two entirely different places here . The rich man died and went to Hades. A place for temporal punishment . Lazarus died and went to Abraham's bosom . The two were essentially located where the rich man could see and converse with both Lazarus and Abraham. The dividing point was a Great Gulf Fixed that prevented any occupants of Hades from entering into Abraham's bosom. And of course we are familiar with the conversation between the rich man and Abraham when the rich man sought the favor of Abraham to send Lazarus to his five brothers to inform them of the torments of Hades. An impossible mission because we are told that "They had Moses and the prophets and if they didn't believe them then how could they believe one that returned from the dead ? " Abraham's bosom was vacated when the redemptive work of Christ was finished and "Corruption put on incorruption." !st.Cor.15:42 ff..  Hades still exist to this day and will be that way  until the Great Day of God Almighty when all occupants that are there in their sins will be resurrected to stand in The Judgment. Upon being judged they will be casted into the eternal   abode of everlasting Hell.

Hebrews 11:13 ff. speaks for itself. " These all died in faith ,not having received the promises , but having seen them afar off were assured of them ,embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth...……..  I don't see a problem with this .We "could" ask the question, 'where are these people now ?'

On 10/3/2019 at 5:26 PM, Matthew A.Duvall said:

Hebrews 11:13 ff. speaks for itself. " These all died in faith ,not having received the promises , but having seen them afar off were assured of them ,embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth...……..  I don't see a problem with this .We "could" ask the question, 'where are these people now ?'

For the a moment let me play the devils advocate here is what the Catholic Church believes in.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

 

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), purgatory is a “final purification” (CCC 1031) which is afforded to “all who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified” so that they might “achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven”

 

This is why the souls in purgatory are called "Holy Souls" . . .  they have died in God's grace and they will attain heaven and the beatific vision of God after their purification is complete.

Essentially this means that purgatory is a sort of temporary purifying punishment which is typically thought of as a cleansing  fire (see 1 Cor. 3:15). This begs the question, is purgatory a sort of physical, fiery place full of souls?  Not necessarily.  I would think of purgatory as more of a state of being.  A state of being post mortal death but before the final judgment of Christ at the Second Coming.

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Matthew A.Duvall
3 hours ago, theophilus said:

This simply means that he went to where Abraham was.  The ESV translation of Luke 16:22,23 says, "The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side."  The fact that they could talk to the rich man shows that they were in Hades just as he was, although they were in a different part.  The Old Testament speaks of Sheol as the place where both the righteous and the unrighteous go at death.  In the New Testament this place is called Hades.  The death of Jesus opened the way for the righteous to go to Heaven, or Paradise, when they die.

I'm not disputing anything you're saying . But I do sometimes question the wording of the ESV. It's one translation that tends to be " Too English." It is one that I have hesitated to buy every time it is offered by my Christian Catalog  Mail Orderr publication. 

As for the subject of the Rich man and Lazarus ,I still consider it an actual event that we can rely on for use in our Christian confessions . There is much to be learned from it .    M

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davy

Doesn't matter if it was a parable or story with fictional characters, that doesn't make His description of Paradise and the great gulf fixed a parable. Right before He died on the cross He told the malefactor that believed on Him that they both would be in Paradise that day. Apostle Paul was caught up to Paradise per 2 Cor.12. It's a real place in the Heavenly.

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Matthew A.Duvall
On 10/5/2019 at 2:22 PM, Antus67 said:

For the a moment let me play the devils advocate here is what the Catholic Church believes in.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

 

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), purgatory is a “final purification” (CCC 1031) which is afforded to “all who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified” so that they might “achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven”

 

This is why the souls in purgatory are called "Holy Souls" . . .  they have died in God's grace and they will attain heaven and the beatific vision of God after their purification is complete.

Essentially this means that purgatory is a sort of temporary purifying punishment which is typically thought of as a cleansing  fire (see 1 Cor. 3:15). This begs the question, is purgatory a sort of physical, fiery place full of souls?  Not necessarily.  I would think of purgatory as more of a state of being.  A state of being post mortal death but before the final judgment of Christ at the Second Coming.

Purgatory is a false doctrine that teaches that after one dies they enter Purgatory for a "final cleansing." None of the bibles used in protestant circles teaches any such thing . The doctrine literally makes the sacrifice of Christ and His justification of believers null and void. That would nullify anything having to do with justification through the shed blood of Christ from the first prophecy recorded in Genesis 3:15 to the actual fulfilment of it when Jesus suffered the cross for all of HIs people. John 19:30.

Fire, used in 1st.Cor.3:15 also is misleading because it has nothing to do with actual cleansing from sin . The Apologetic bible has a clear meaning of what Paul was saying. "  If anyone's work is burned up it will be lost. { No reference here to the eternal state of Hellfire } .   contd. But he will be saved ;yet it will be like an escape through fire ." 

Purgatory is a fictitious invention by the popes that is designed to tell the faithful that they have nothing to worry about because what was not repented of on earth can be rectified in purgatory.

The unbelieving will enter Hades to await Judgment .The redeemed shall immediately enter Heaven upon their deaths. 

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Ron61350

This is not a doctrinal passage. This passage deals with the pharisees wrong beliefs about immediate rewards and punishments after death. Parables are an extended simile and make the point at the end. That being the pharisees didn't believe what the law and Prophets said and neither would the believe when he was raised from the dead. They didn't believe as we know but sought to persecute and murder those who spoke Jesus name. There are older ms which state "and he put forth another parable saying."  Spiritualism is the belief in life after death, an occult belief. God does not speak of life after death until being raised from the dead.

People can argue the point if they wish. but your problem is with God and His Truth. Not me.

God Bless You All Abundantly.

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Guest

Ruthy is Becky doing some testing 🙂 

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Lee_v.2

If I may add a thought or two 🙂 

 

Jesus, in telling his hearers about Lazarus and the Rich Man, focuses much on Abraham.  Here, at the outset, if there are any Sadducees or rich people hearing Jesus, they are probably squirming for they do not believe in the soul/spirit or an afterlife.  Yet, they cling to Abraham!  And now, this upstart, this Jesus has just "stolen" Abraham from them, whom they prop up as a justification for their self-righteousness, and Jesus now places Abraham in a supernatural, spiritual setting which the Sadducees and rich mock and scorn.  What is clear, at least for the sake of the telling and its intended goal, is that Abraham's being featured by Jesus in the telling should point those hearers to a section of scripture where God has said of himself, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” (Mat 22:32; cf Exo 3:6).  Here the Sadducess are forced to reckon with Moses and the assertion by God that the Fathers are alive with God, after death, and always have been!  Plainly, in Jesus' mind, it would seem he is thinking of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as representing the righteous who are Abraham's offspring, "seed" referring to sinners saved throughout history who are in the way of faith like Abraham, as compared to "Seed" referring to Christ, himself, the concentrated Offspring of Abraham.  These "offspring of Abraham" are the True Israel of God (even as Christ is ultimately the True Israel in his person) and, upon death, are where God is, in Heaven... if that is where Abraham is.  So, for Jesus to use Abraham at all in such a telling, it seems to me there is no other conclusion to be drawn from Jesus' use of the word "living" in a well known verse and a related encounter with hostile Sadducees, aside from this: that a righteous person lives in the blessed presence of God, as represented by Lazarus being where Abraham is.  Modern teachings that the righteous do not go to heaven, or are not in heaven, or didn't or won't go to heaven but rather go to a third place until a complex series of dispensations occurs or follow-up activities are completed by Christ would not only be foreign to Jesus himself, but to the Apostles and to much that calls itself Christian throughout history, the Roman Catholic church excepted.  I think it is a simple mistake for some but, for others, they have a complex way of approaching the Bible that makes a basic approach to the Lazarus and the Rich Man parable/account more difficult.  How so?  By asserting a separate, "third space/place" where spirits reside.

 

Consider:  Jesus' recitation of the above statement of God (Exo 3:6) eliminates the possibility of a "third spirit space/place" or location (that is additional to Heaven and hell), an assertion that is very difficult to support from scripture except for some, it seems, using these passages of scripture.  However, I would suggest the conclusion that this passage teaches about a "third spirit space/place" is owed to a misreading of the sense, and unfortunate selective capitalization of the term used.  So, let me suggest that Abraham's bosom is more description than title, a formal place in terms of its blessedness, but not a separate place.  It is here where the difficulty perhaps arises, for if we read this as "Abraham's Bosom" - with an upper-case "B" then we are likely to believe it is a formal, separate location, a third place where the souls of the righteous go until Jesus' descension into hell and his subsequent "quasi-ascension" where he grabs those who are in "Abraham's Bosom" - sort of a safe way-station they have to be held in until they are perfected and made fit for Heaven after Jesus's resurrection, or after some other event.  However, I would say that the best rendering of the place where Lazarus is (and still is) would be, "Abraham's bosom" with a lower-case "b" - and that is merely to say that "Lazarus is where Abraham already was and still is, enjoying life in the presence of God, in Heaven."  This understanding would not be foreign to scripture or Jesus, for the Bible ot Jesus' day (and ours) seems to assume Enoch, a sinner like the rest of us, went to Heaven to be with God before Christ's temporal work was even begun (Gen 5:24).  So, if Enoch gets in, why would Abraham be barred, and Lazarus, as well?  My apologies for belaboring this point.  I did so because I think it is an impediment to capturing a better sense of the situation and the theology of the parties Jesus was addressing.  I used to believe in "Abraham's Bosom - the third place" but it continued to strike me just how Christ's sufficiency and work was, in that model, not quite as sufficient as the New Testament testifies.  Anthony A. Hoekema's, "The Bible and The Future" can help with this, and also provide comparisons of millenial models.

 

Now, in terms of "parable vs account" consider Jesus' audience was likely the Sadducees (the rich were perhaps more likely to be in the social strata the Sadducees and Scribes inhabited).  Jesus is likely doing a bit of necessary nose tweaking with these unbelievers.  They are, in a real sense, the religious liberals of their day.  They do not believe in some supernatural elements of Scripture's teaching, and their unbelief is fatal to faith.  Jesus knows this full well, and his use of the phrase "Moses and the Prophets" instead of simply saying,  "Scripture," may well be directing attention to these liberals who didn't believe the whole Bible they had.  Rather, they dismissed all books that came after Deuteronomy.  So, Jesus perhaps goes to great lengths to zero in on their unbelief about spirit/souls of persons, Heaven, the afterlife, etc.  In doing so, would Jesus offset his move toward literal precision and supporting scripture by using a name of someone who was just made up?  Now, it is a common device for all humans to use something that is not real "for the sake of the argument."  We all, without exception, rely on these to drive home points, and Jesus could have done the same.  For instance, a mother may tell a petulant, pouty child, "If you keep making that sour face, it's gonna freeze like that!"  Or, a person might say, "I am so hungry I could eat a horse!"  Or, "That ice cream shop has mile-high ice cream cones!"  These are not lies, per se, even if impossible, untrue.  Still, we all know they are true for the sake an the argument, because they make us think.  They are not about the actual, possible, or probable, but are about the conceivable.  Thus, Jesus could have made up the person and name of Lazarus and have done no wrong in the process, if that were even possible for Him!  Still, it seems odd he would make up a name for a parable when all his other parables were never the occasion for such.

 

Now, if Lazarus and the scene with Abraham were real, did Jesus actually know the details of the interactions between Abraham and the Rich Man?  To help answer that, we need to consider the knowledge that Jesus did or did not have.  So, regarding Christ's knowledge, in his humanity, Jesus does not have all knowledge (i.e. he says the Father knows the time of the end, but the son - in his humanity, obviously - does not).  However, in his office as Prophet, he does exhibit supernatural knowledge at times (he knew Lazarus, his friend, was dead before anybody else in his party did).  Of course, in his Deity, he knows all things.  So, the possibility that Jesus made up Lazarus and the scene's interactions for the purposes of a parable is lessened when we think of the types of knowledge he had.  But, even then, it is a bit speculative.  It is also possible that there really was a beggar named Lazarus, who recently died and was known to the community where Jesus was teaching.  Still a bit speculative, but we know Jesus was not averse to speaking obliquely against the self-righteous and the rich - and the Pharisees, and so it at least cannot be said he would not use the miserable death of a real, known, poor man on the streets to more provocatively even if obliquely point up the evil of the rich and powerful concerning their self-righteousness.  Given this, I think I prefer that Lazarus was a real person.  (Note:  I don't believe Jesus is teaching social justice, as a movement.  Rather, it is still his aim to teach about rebellion against God in the heart, how riches and earthly power harden that heart, and if the hard-hearted won't believe the Scriptures then nothing supernatural will avail to bring them to faith and repentance unto life.  Still, repeated turning away from others in need, especially in the covenant community, contributes to and demonstrates a hardness of heart that, in the end, may prove one is not renewed by the Spirit in the image of Christ.)

 

In conclusion, I suggest, given Jesus' theology is perfect in every way, that he perhaps uses the name and situation of a real person, Lazarus, who is known to the rich and self-righteous hearers, and makes that same Lazarus the central character in a parable featuring what is possible - certainly conceivable, given what Jesus knows from Scripture.  We could then still take the features of the "account/parable" (i.e. heaven and hell, angels carrying the righteous immediately to heaven, etc.) as being accurate because Jesus knew his Bible better than any person on this planet ever could. 🙂

 

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Guest Becky
10 hours ago, Lee_v.2 said:

These "offspring of Abraham" are the True Israel of God (even as Christ is ultimately the True Israel in his person) and, upon death, are where God is, in Heaven...

Exo 4:22  And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

 

IMO your thoughts are in agreement with this verse 

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davidstarcher

It certainly begins like other parabables, "A Sower Went Out To Sow" and "now there was a rich man" and I see no reason to see it as not being one. As far as it being taken literally that seems to be precluded by such statements as "dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue". Since people still were living on the earth in sin this would be before the dead have been reunited with their bodies so neither the rich man or Lazarus would have had a finger or a tongue. This is best understood as simply figurative speech to describe the agony in which he was suffering and in like manner other speech to describe the comfort of the blessed until the day they are reunited with their bodies. There is no reason to believe any such event or conversation actually took place and it would neither add or take away nothing from the purpose of the story if it did.  

 

The point of the story is not to give us an exposition and the specifics of the afterlife but to teach about the nature of unbelief and that is where the focus of the conversation leeds and concludes with. If they don't listen to moses and the prophets  they will not listen to one even if he rises from the dead. People in his day had sufficient information in God's word (Moses and the Prophets) and it isn't for lack of witnesses, signs, or a better argument that they didn't believe. In the New Testament we both have more witnesses and one who rose from the dead and still people refuse to believe. 

 

This is the same teaching that is given by Paul in 1 Corinthians 1:22-24 "For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."  To those who are effectually called a faithful preaching of the word is sufficient but to those who are not no manner of signs or sophisticated philosophical arguments will persuade them to repent and believe. 

 

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