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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
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Solas

For Conversion God Must at Least. ? !

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Solas
22 minutes ago, Deidre said:

He allows us to make our own choices, but He already knows what we will choose. God allows for free will, but our lives are predetermined, as He knows the outcome.

Well I guess there are a few non Calvinists here. I don't think I'd go that far to say That God is an all knowing spectator. Like I said in the opening post...

Quote

God must at least...

reveal and convict of one's sinfulness,

reveal His salvation through Christ and Him crucified,

tear down walls resistance,

open one's understanding,

 

 

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atpollard
1 hour ago, Solas said:

Where do I stand? (It's half the reason I am asking this question). I hold the issue of God's sovereignty the same as way I see the Incarnation....Jesus is fully God/fully man..even so..God is 100% sovereign but in such a way where man's culpability and responsibility holds intact 100%.. I cannot fully reconcile the two, but I believe it is what Scripture reveals.

So just ask about that. 🙂

As someone who formerly set my enemies on fire, I don’t generally do SUBTLE.

 

1 hour ago, Solas said:

"Yet does He choose for us?".

 

1 hour ago, Solas said:

'Does obedience consist of Him choosing for us?'

 

I come at this whole Christianity thing from radical Nihilism, so for me nothing is more important than finding the “Truth”.  So all I have to judge ‘truth’ by is what God’s word says (which can appear contradictory or at least confusing), what I think God’s word means based on reconciling ALL of the verses and their context (but I could be wrong) and my personal empirical experience from my own salvation (which is ‘heresay’ to anyone else, but irrefutable fact to me).  Based on those three sources of understanding, your questions have a fundamental flaw.  You are looking at things backwards.  

 

Let me present nothing more than a ‘What if’ and you decide if my scenario fits any of the Scripture, understanding of scripture and personal experience that you have to draw on.

 

  • God creates Adam and Eve sinless and gives them everything they need, including a rule and the ability to choose to obey or disobey that rule.
  • Adam and Eve, just like every person that has ever lived [except Jesus], chose to rebel against God.
  • God created the LAW to provide man with a ‘second chance’ opportunity to live according to God’s rules.  Every human being who ever lived has failed to obey even the basic 10 commandments.
  • The LAW was never actually created to save anyone.  Anyone COULD have obeyed the LAW, there was nothing too difficult in the LAW.  Mankind, with 100% certainty, chose to follow our innate nature and break the LAW.
  • Jesus later explained that the LAW was only a small part of what God required for Holiness.  Remember the talk about being angry making us guilty of murder.  Paul went on to explain that the LAW was a teacher sent to reveal our sin to us, so we would know that we need a SAVIOR.
  • How many places in scripture does it say that people should choose God, but that they will or do not.  The god of this world has blinded them to the gospel.  The gospel is foolishness to the carnal man.  Men avoid the light and choose the darkness because their deeds are evil.  All have sinned; none seek God.
  • Men have the freedom to follow our hearts, and without exception our hearts lead 100% of humanity away from God and towards HELL.

This is the starting point for God’s plan of salvation.  God calls all (like the wedding feast parable) and none choose to come.

 

DOES GOD CHOOSE FOR US?  

No, we all have the freedom to choose to reject God and we all chose to reject God.

 

DOES OBEDIENCE CONSIST OF GOD CHOOSING FOR US?

No, there is no obedience because all men choose to disobey.

 

DOES GOD CONDEMN PEOPLE BECAUSE HE DIDN’T CHOOSE THEM?

No, God condemns all of us because we are all guilty of the sin of rebellion against our creator.

 

A Soverign, Holy (set apart, not like us), RIghteous and Just God must condemn the guilty and punish our evil actions and intentions.

 

GOD IS LOVE.  GOD IS MERCIFUL.  GOD OFFERS GRACE.

  • Enter God with a solution.  God will choose to love some, for reasons having nothing to do with any innate merit in the people that God loves, but “just because” ... that’s who God is.
  • Because of God’s love, those He loves will have their hearts transformed.
  • Because we have had our hearts transformed, we were drawn to Jesus (contrary to our fallen nature) and desired to repent.
  • Because we were drawn to Jesus, we were transformed and indwelt by the Holy Spirit.  This grants us the desire to please God and the ability to please God ... to walk in the good works that God has prepared in advance for us.

 

So as I see it, God does desire all men to obey and repent, but God also knows that none will and all men have earned their punishment using their freedom to follow their sinful nature.  God has foreknown (fore-loved) and predestined and called and justified and sanctified and glorified FOR HIMSELF a people of His own ... the Saints, the Church, the Bride of Christ, God’s Children ... the elect (chosen by God).

 

There are no people who “want to be saved” but were not chosen by God.  If God did not forelove them, then they want nothing to do with the true God ... they have some “god” image that they are more comfortable with that blesses their sin.

 

There are no people who are “saved against their will”.  Being loved by God is what empowers us with the “desire” to come into the light, to approach Jesus and to repent.  

 

Salvation is not people choosing to do the right thing.  Salvation is God-hating sinners being wooed and falling in love with their creator.  

Edited by atpollard
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Deidre
36 minutes ago, Solas said:

Well I guess there are a few non Calvinists here. I don't think I'd go that far to say That God is an all knowing spectator. Like I said in the opening post...

 

 

Oh I didn’t say God is a sidelines spectator. That would be Deism. The Bible states that we have the ability to make free choices but God is still all knowing. He allows the outcomes, allows us to reap what we sow, and at times, intervenes. But even if we sin and repent, this is God working all things for our good. He is always interested in our fellowship with Him. 

 

I don’t believe in following anyone’s doctrine, I’m really just trying my best to follow Jesus. No Luther. No Calvin. I might agree with them or not but I don’t like denomination labels, tbh.

 

I’m a Christian, not a Lutheran or Protestant or Calvinist or ex-Catholic etc...

 

The rest is just man made labels created to divide, imo.

Edited by Deidre

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Solas
15 minutes ago, atpollard said:

So just ask about that. 🙂

As someone who formerly set my enemies on fire, I don’t generally do SUBTLE.

 

 

 

I come at this whole Christianity thing from radical Nihilism, so for me nothing is more important than finding the “Truth”.  So all I have to judge ‘truth’ by is what God’s word says (which can appear contradictory or at least confusing), what I think God’s word means based on reconciling ALL of the verses and their context (but I could be wrong) and my personal empirical experience from my own salvation (which is ‘heresay’ to anyone else, but irrefutable fact to me).  Based on those three sources of understanding, your questions have a fundamental flaw.  You are looking at things backwards.  

 

Let me present nothing more than a ‘What if’ and you decide if my scenario fits any of the Scripture, understanding of scripture and personal experience that you have to draw on.

 

  • God creates Adam and Eve sinless and gives them everything they need, including a rule and the ability to choose to obey or disobey that rule.
  • Adam and Eve, just like every person that has ever lived [except Jesus], chose to rebel against God.
  • God created the LAW to provide man with a ‘second chance’ opportunity to live according to God’s rules.  Every human being who ever lived has failed to obey even the basic 10 commandments.
  • The LAW was never actually created to save anyone.  Anyone COULD have obeyed the LAW, there was nothing too difficult in the LAW.  Mankind, with 100% certainty, chose to follow our innate nature and break the LAW.
  • Jesus later explained that the LAW was only a small part of what God required for Holiness.  Remember the talk about being angry making us guilty of murder.  Paul went on to explain that the LAW was a teacher sent to reveal our sin to us, so we would know that we need a SAVIOR.
  • How many places in scripture does it say that people should choose God, but that they will or do not.  The god of this world has blinded them to the gospel.  The gospel is foolishness to the carnal man.  Men avoid the light and choose the darkness because their deeds are evil.  All have sinned; none seek God.
  • Men have the freedom to follow our hearts, and without exception our hearts lead 100% of humanity away from God and towards HELL.

This is the starting point for God’s plan of salvation.  God calls all (like the wedding feast parable) and none choose to come.

 

DOES GOD CHOOSE FOR US?  

No, we all have the freedom to choose to reject God and we all chose to reject God.

 

DOES OBEDIENCE CONSIST OF GOD CHOOSING FOR US?

No, there is no obedience because all men choose to disobey.

 

DOES GOD CONDEMN PEOPLE BECAUSE HE DIDN’T CHOOSE THEM?

No, God condemns all of us because we are all guilty of the sin of rebellion against our creator.

 

A Soverign, Holy (set apart, not like us), RIghteous and Just God must condemn the guilty and punish our evil actions and intentions.

 

GOD IS LOVE.  GOD IS MERCIFUL.  GOD OFFERS GRACE.

  • Enter God with a solution.  God will choose to love some, for reasons having nothing to do with any innate merit in the people that God loves, but “just because” ... that’s who God is.
  • Because of God’s love, those He loves will have their hearts transformed.
  • Because we have had our hearts transformed, we were drawn to Jesus (contrary to our fallen nature) and desired to repent.
  • Because we were drawn to Jesus, we were transformed and indwelt by the Holy Spirit.  This grants us the desire to please God and the ability to please God ... to walk in the good works that God has prepared in advance for us.

 

So as I see it, God does desire all men to obey and repent, but God also knows that none will and all men have earned their punishment using their freedom to follow their sinful nature.  God has foreknown (fore-loved) and predestined and called and justified and sanctified and glorified FOR HIMSELF a people of His own ... the Saints, the Church, the Bride of Christ, God’s Children ... the elect (chosen by God).

 

There are no people who “want to be saved” but were not chosen by God.  If God did not forelove them, then they want nothing to do with the true God ... they have some “god” image that they are more comfortable with that blesses their sin.

 

There are no people who are “saved against their will”.  Being loved by God is what empowers us with the “desire” to come into the light, to approach Jesus and to repent.  

 

Salvation is not people choosing to do the right thing.  Salvation is God-hating sinners being wooed and falling in love with their creator.  

It sounds interesting, but like I said at the outset I meant...

Quote

Please keep your answers on the short side..I don't do well with long tomes as I am a helpless victim of our post modern culture lol.

So give me one or two points per response, or give me your main point.  

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Solas
15 minutes ago, Deidre said:

Oh I didn’t say God is a sidelines spectator. That would be Deism. The Bible states that we have the ability to make free choices but God is still all knowing. He allows the outcomes, allows us to reap what we sow, and at times, intervenes. But even if we sin and repent, this is God working all things for our good. He is always interested in our fellowship with Him. 

 

I don’t believe in following anyone’s doctrine, I’m really just trying my best to follow Jesus. No Luther. No Calvin. I might agree with them or not but I don’t like denomination labels, tbh.

 

I’m a Christian, not a Lutheran or Protestant or Calvinist or ex-Catholic etc...

 

The rest is just man made labels created to divide, imo.

Yes, I hope we all formulate our beliefs according to Scripture.

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Solas
10 hours ago, Faber said:

"For Conversion God Must at Least. ? !"

 

 Do everything.

 

 We are like the dead bones in Ezekiel 37 and Lazarus in John 11. Christ calls us through the Spirit to be made alive, because before that we were dead. (Ephesians 2:1, 5).

He calls us through His Word (written/verbal) and Spirit, correct?  

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Solas
6 hours ago, Becky said:

We are His vessels and He the Potter If He doesn't make the vessels there aint nothing 

 

Rom 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 
Rom 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 
Rom 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 
Rom 9:22  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 
Rom 9:23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 
 

When I read Romans 9-11, I don't see the issue of individual's salvation, but rather God's sovereign dealings with the Gentile nations and especially Israel and how they intersect under His merciful hand.

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Solas
6 hours ago, Ben Asher said:

Greetings Solas,

 

This is an interesting question!

The various answers to this question are also interesting.

Christians or other individuals you meet will probably hold to one of the following:

 

(1) Indeterminism (everything happens by chance)

(2) libertarianism (people have free will or rather free agency)

(3) Determinism (Soft determinism, Hard determinism, Superdeterminism/fatalism) = Calvinist and Reform thinkers tend to hold to something along this perspective)

(4) Compatibilism (the idea that Determinism and libertarianism are not incompatible. Sometimes Soft determinism is similar to this)

 

For example,  a link to Matt Slick's answer to your thoughtful question has been posted below. Where you do you think he stands?

(DISCLAIMER: My posting of the following LINK does not necessarily equal an agreement or an endorsement of all views, theology,  opinions therein,  nor of the website as a whole.)

CARM.ORG

God enables us to choose Him by His gracious work (John 6:28-29; Philippians 1:29).

 

The question isn't so much 'Do we choose God or does God choose us?' (I do believe He is the initiator) but rather is God's sovereignty such, that in the end He is choosing for us OR, after all is said and done on His part, we still have  a choice to make?

Maybe I can coin a new term...'choicephobia'.

Edited by Solas

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Innerfire89

Our very nature must be changed, that is beyond our will.

When we are regenerated and we can see God's Grace we willingly accept what Christ has done for us.

 

The Westminster book of Confessions put it well.

I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call,[1] by his Word and Spirit,[2] out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ;[3]enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God,[4] taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh;[5] renewing their wills, and, by his almighty power, determining them to that which is good,[6] and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ:[7] yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.[8]

II. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man,[9]who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit,[10] he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.[11]

III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit,[12] who works when, and where, and how he pleases:[13] so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.[14]

IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word,[15] and may have some common operations of the Spirit,[16]yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:[17]much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess.[18] And to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.[19]

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Faber
3 hours ago, Solas said:

He calls us through His Word (written/verbal) and Spirit, correct?  

Yes.

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GodsGrace
12 hours ago, Faber said:

 It explains that the choice was already made (cf. Psalm 65:4).

Ephesians 1:3-7

 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 

4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 

5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 

7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 

8which He lavished on us.

 

As the bible states, from the beginning God had a plan because He knew we would fall (in the Garden).

 

He didn't plan WHO will be saved....How would that make Him be a JUST God if He doesn't give us the opportunity to be saved?

 

God planned HOW we would be saved...through His Son, Jesus who would buy us back,,,,redeem us.

 

Verse 3 starts with explaining that God would bless us IN CHRIST.

 

Verse 4 states that we would be chosen to be blameless and holy before God IN CHRIST....IN HIM.

 

Verse 5 says that we were predestined to become sons of God THROUGH JESUS,  through the KIND intention of God's will.  A kind God does not send people to hell without giving them a chance to be saved.  God predestined us to be holy and blameless BEFORE HIM...GOD,,, Through His Son Jesus...He did NOT predestine WHO would be chosen....that is up to us to receive this blessing of salvation from God.

 

Verses 6-8 tells, again, HOW we are redeemed through the Son,,,our Lord and Savior.

 

 

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GodsGrace
11 hours ago, atpollard said:

Only if they are GUILTY.

 

[Rom 1:18-20 NASB] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

 

[Rom 1:24, 26, 28 NASB] 24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. ... 26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, ... 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,

 

[Rom 2:5-6 NASB] 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

 

[Rom 3:10-12 NASB] 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

 

... do we see a pattern here?

 

If you have a problem with the morality of it, Paul anticipated your concern and addressed it:

 

[Rom 9:14-24 NASB] 14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 [even] us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Two points A...

 

1.  First of all, even HUMAN judges give someone guilty the opportunity to save themselves...maybe they killed someone in self-defence?  Is God not even as good as a human?

 

2.  Romans 9 to 11 is not speaking about INDIVIDUAL salvation...it's speaking about corporate salvation, and in this case the Jews.  They refused to accept Jesus as their Messiah...will God now abadon them?  Paul explains God's plan for adding the Gentiles to the vine of the Jews.

 

You could read ANY commentary, except a calvinist one, and it will tell you the above.  Romans 9 to 11 cannot be used to support indivudual salvation.  

Edited by GodsGrace

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GodsGrace
13 hours ago, Faber said:

 

 It seems those who are fond of citing Matthew 7:1 ignore John 7:24.

 And it seems those who are fond of citing John 3:16 ignore John 6:44.

Mathew 7:1 is about judging....I don't know what that has to do with what we're discussing.  (Ephesians 1:4)

 

And you bring up John 3:16 and John 6:44 as though it conflicted.

The bible does not conflict with itself or it wouldn't be a reliable book.

 

John was very concerned about the gnostics entering into groups of believing persons...He's saying that the GNOSTICS were never of the believers, and, in fact, they are not.  They were rejected by the Apostles and the early church.

 

There are too many other verses in the N.T. to show that we could become lost after salvation to believe that John 6:44 would mean that one couldn't...

 

Edited by GodsGrace

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GodsGrace
7 hours ago, Innerfire89 said:

Our very nature must be changed, that is beyond our will.

When we are regenerated and we can see God's Grace we willingly accept what Christ has done for us.

 

The Westminster book of Confessions put it well.

I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call,[1] by his Word and Spirit,[2] out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ;[3]enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God,[4] taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh;[5] renewing their wills, and, by his almighty power, determining them to that which is good,[6] and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ:[7] yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.[8]

II. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man,[9]who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit,[10] he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.[11]

III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit,[12] who works when, and where, and how he pleases:[13] so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.[14]

IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word,[15] and may have some common operations of the Spirit,[16]yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:[17]much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess.[18] And to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.[19]

 Why do you post the Westminster Book of Confessions for support?

 

IF I were catholic, would I post the CCC for support?

No....

 

Not everyone here is calvinist.

Could we use the bible please?

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Guest Becky
18 minutes ago, GodsGrace said:

Ephesians 1:3-7

 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 

4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 

5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 

7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 

8which He lavished on us.

Act 20:28  Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 
Mar 9:41  For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. 
1Co 6:19  What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 
1Co 6:20  For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. 

 

He chose us  He purchased us  we belong to Him  How does the God of all, The Almighty  The Father  the Good Shepard   the king of Kings  Everlasting Father  loose anything ? 

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Guest William
8 minutes ago, GodsGrace said:

 Why do you post the Westminster Book of Confessions for support?

 

IF I were catholic, would I post the CCC for support?

No....

 

Not everyone here is calvinist.

Could we use the bible please?

Reformed are creedal and confessional. They are held by Reformed as a secondary authority. The main difference between Reformed confessions and those apostate Catholics is that our confessions are based on Scripture. If you have time read the WCF Chapter 1 which establishes Sola Scriptura. Scriptural references are available for the WCF.

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Faber
1 hour ago, GodsGrace said:

How would that make Him be a JUST God if He doesn't give us the opportunity to be saved?

 If He chose not to save anyone He would still be just/righteous. The fact that He chooses just to save one is a testimony to His infinite mercy.

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Faber
1 hour ago, GodsGrace said:

There are too many other verses in the N.T. to show that we could become lost after salvation to believe that John 6:44 would mean that one couldn't...

 

There are none.

 

 But there are so many clear verses that show we can not be lost after salvation.

 Ephesians 4:30 is one of them.

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Innerfire89
1 hour ago, GodsGrace said:

 Why do you post the Westminster Book of Confessions for support?

 

IF I were catholic, would I post the CCC for support?

No....

 

Not everyone here is calvinist.

Could we use the bible please?

Because the confessions put my position  in precise words, I'm not appealing to them as an authorive writing.

 

What was the question about? It was about Calvinist doctrine.

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Faber
1 hour ago, GodsGrace said:

You could read ANY commentary, except a calvinist one, and it will tell you the above.  Romans 9 to 11 cannot be used to support indivudual salvation.  

 You used this argument before even though it has already been refuted.

 

See post #47

https://www.christforums.com/forums/topic/19972-question-regarding-predestination-and-election/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-81609

 

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GodsGrace
8 hours ago, Solas said:

The question isn't so much 'Do we choose God or does God choose us?' (I do believe He is the initiator) but rather is God's sovereignty such, that in the end He is choosing for us OR, after all is said and done on His part, we still have  a choice to make?

Maybe I can coin a new term...'choicephobia'.

Hi Solas....

After all is said and done....we DO have a choice to make.

The choice is:  Do we want to serve God or not.

If we do not serve God,  then we're really serving satan..there is no middle ground.  Romans 6:16

 

In every instance in the N.T. where a person wants to be Christian and asks how...OR, when instruction is given as to how,,,,the answer is always that one has to believe...of their own free will.

 

Acts 16:30-31  The jailer asks how he can be saved...Paul tells him:

Believe in the Lord Jesus and you WILL be saved.

 

Romans 1:19-20  states that God has always made Himself be known by the things which He has made...such as nature...so that those who do not accept Him are without excuse.

 

Romans 10:9-11

 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 

10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 

11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 

 

All of the above verses (and there are many more)  require an action on your part.

We're not to wait around waiting to see if God has picked us....

We're to decide to serve God and be saved by His sacrifice.

John 3:16

 16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 

 

 

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Solas
18 minutes ago, GodsGrace said:

After all is said and done....we DO have a choice to make.

The choice is:  Do we want to serve God or not.

If we do not serve God,  then we're really serving satan..there is no middle ground.  Romans 6:16

I suppose there should be a distinction made between the unregenerate and regenerate. Of course the regenerate should have a willingness to serve God. The unregenerate is serving satan with his unwillingness to serve God, but in the dealings of God on the unregenerate which I listed in the OP, does God go all the way and actually choose Himself for that unregenerate or is there that last step where the unregenerate actually makes a choice?

Edited by Solas

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Guest Becky
42 minutes ago, GodsGrace said:

Hi Solas....

After all is said and done....we DO have a choice to make.

The choice is:  Do we want to serve God or not.

If we do not serve God,  then we're really serving satan..there is no middle ground.  Romans 6:16

 

In every instance in the N.T. where a person wants to be Christian and asks how...OR, when instruction is given as to how,,,,the answer is always that one has to believe...of their own free will.

 

Acts 16:30-31  The jailer asks how he can be saved...Paul tells him:

Believe in the Lord Jesus and you WILL be saved.

 

Romans 1:19-20  states that God has always made Himself be known by the things which He has made...such as nature...so that those who do not accept Him are without excuse.

 

Romans 10:9-11

 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 

10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 

11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 

 

All of the above verses (and there are many more)  require an action on your part.

We're not to wait around waiting to see if God has picked us....

We're to decide to serve God and be saved by His sacrifice.

John 3:16

 16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 

 

 

Where do you read "of their own free will " in any of those verses ?

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atpollard
13 hours ago, Solas said:

It sounds interesting, but like I said at the outset I meant...

So give me one or two points per response, or give me your main point.  

Sure.

FIRST POINT: You are looking at things from the wrong perspective.

 

I come at this whole Christianity thing from radical Nihilism, so for me nothing is more important than finding the “Truth”.  So all I have to judge ‘truth’ by is what God’s word says (which can appear contradictory or at least confusing), what I think God’s word means based on reconciling ALL of the verses and their context (but I could be wrong) and my personal empirical experience from my own salvation (which is ‘heresay’ to anyone else, but irrefutable fact to me).  Based on those three sources of understanding, your questions have a fundamental flaw.  You are looking at things backwards. 

 

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atpollard
14 hours ago, Solas said:

It sounds interesting, but like I said at the outset I meant...

So give me one or two points per response, or give me your main point.  

 

SECOND POINT: EVERYONE (100% of Humanity) EXERCISES THEIR FREEDOM TO FOLLOW THEIR INNATE NATURE AND CHOOSES TO REJECT THE TRUE GOD FOR A FALSE ‘god’ THEY LIKE BETTER.

 

Let me present nothing more than a ‘What if’ and you decide if my scenario fits any of the Scripture, understanding of scripture and personal experience that you have to draw on.

  • God creates Adam and Eve sinless and gives them everything they need, including a rule and the ability to choose to obey or disobey that rule.
  • Adam and Eve, just like every person that has ever lived [except Jesus], chose to rebel against God.
  • God created the LAW to provide man with a ‘second chance’ opportunity to live according to God’s rules.  Every human being who ever lived has failed to obey even the basic 10 commandments.
  • The LAW was never actually created to save anyone.  Anyone COULD have obeyed the LAW, there was nothing too difficult in the LAW.  Mankind, with 100% certainty, chose to follow our innate nature and break the LAW.
  • Jesus later explained that the LAW was only a small part of what God required for Holiness.  Remember the talk about being angry making us guilty of murder.  Paul went on to explain that the LAW was a teacher sent to reveal our sin to us, so we would know that we need a SAVIOR.
  • How many places in scripture does it say that people should choose God, but that they will or do not.  The god of this world has blinded them to the gospel.  The gospel is foolishness to the carnal man.  Men avoid the light and choose the darkness because their deeds are evil.  All have sinned; none seek God.
  • Men have the freedom to follow our hearts, and without exception our hearts lead 100% of humanity away from God and towards HELL.

 This is the starting point for God’s plan of salvation.  God calls all (like the wedding feast parable) and none choose to come.

Edited by atpollard

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