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Welcome to SovereignGraceSingles.com. Where Reformed Faith and Romance Come Together! We are the only Christian dating website for Christian Singles in the Reformed Faith worldwide. Our focus is to bring together Christian singles of all ages. Reformed single Christian men and women who wish to meet other Reformed Christian singles for spiritually, like-minded, loving relationships.
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Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” - Genesis 2:18
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Meet Like Minded Believers Can two walk together except they be agreed? - Amos 3:3
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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
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Solas

For Conversion God Must at Least. ? !

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atpollard
14 hours ago, Solas said:

It sounds interesting, but like I said at the outset I meant...

So give me one or two points per response, or give me your main point.  

 

THIRD POINT:  A DIRECT ANSWER TO THE QUESTIONS YOU RAISE FROM THE CORRECTED PERSPECTIVE.

 

DOES GOD CHOOSE FOR US?  

  • No, we all have the freedom to choose to reject God and we all chose to reject God.

 

DOES OBEDIENCE CONSIST OF GOD CHOOSING FOR US?

  • No, there is no obedience because all men choose to disobey.

 

DOES GOD CONDEMN PEOPLE BECAUSE HE DIDN’T CHOOSE THEM?

  • No, God condemns all of us because we are all guilty of the sin of rebellion against our creator.

 

A Soverign, Holy (set apart, not like us), RIghteous and Just God must condemn the guilty and punish our evil actions and intentions.

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atpollard
14 hours ago, Solas said:

It sounds interesting, but like I said at the outset I meant...

So give me one or two points per response, or give me your main point.  

 

FOURTH POINT:  GOD HAS A PLAN OF GRACE.

 

GOD IS LOVE.  GOD IS MERCIFUL.  GOD OFFERS GRACE.

  • Enter God with a solution.  God will choose to love some, for reasons having nothing to do with any innate merit in the people that God loves, but “just because” ... that’s who God is.
  • Because of God’s love, those He loves will have their hearts transformed.
  • Because we have had our hearts transformed, we were drawn to Jesus (contrary to our fallen nature) and desired to repent.
  • Because we were drawn to Jesus, we were transformed and indwelt by the Holy Spirit.  This grants us the desire to please God and the ability to please God ... to walk in the good works that God has prepared in advance for us.

 

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atpollard
14 hours ago, Solas said:

It sounds interesting, but like I said at the outset I meant...

So give me one or two points per response, or give me your main point.  

 

LAST POINT:  THE CONCEPT OF A SINNER WHO WANTS TO BE SAVED BUT IS NOT ‘CHOSEN’ BY GOD AND THE CONCEPT OF A PERSON BEING SAVED ‘AGAINST THERE WILL’ ARE BOTH LOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITITIES THAT FAIL TO UNDERSTAND WHAT SALVATION IS AND WHERE THE DESIRE TO BE SAVED COMES FROM.

 

So as I see it, God does desire all men to obey and repent, but God also knows that none will and all men have earned their punishment using their freedom to follow their sinful nature.  God has foreknown (fore-loved) and predestined and called and justified and sanctified and glorified FOR HIMSELF a people of His own ... the Saints, the Church, the Bride of Christ, God’s Children ... the elect (chosen by God).

 

There are no people who “want to be saved” but were not chosen by God.  If God did not forelove them, then they want nothing to do with the true God ... they have some “god” image that they are more comfortable with that blesses their sin.

 

There are no people who are “saved against their will”.  Being loved by God is what empowers us with the “desire” to come into the light, to approach Jesus and to repent.  

 

Salvation is not people choosing to do the right thing.  Salvation is God-hating sinners being wooed and falling in love with their creator.  

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atpollard
5 hours ago, GodsGrace said:

A kind God does not send people to hell without giving them a chance to be saved.

Was Satan given a chance to be saved?

 

God forces no one to sin, does he, so where is the injustice in condemning the guilty?

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atpollard
5 hours ago, GodsGrace said:

Two points A...

 

1.  First of all, even HUMAN judges give someone guilty the opportunity to save themselves...maybe they killed someone in self-defence?  Is God not even as good as a human?

 

2.  Romans 9 to 11 is not speaking about INDIVIDUAL salvation...it's speaking about corporate salvation, and in this case the Jews.  They refused to accept Jesus as their Messiah...will God now abadon them?  Paul explains God's plan for adding the Gentiles to the vine of the Jews.

 

You could read ANY commentary, except a calvinist one, and it will tell you the above.  Romans 9 to 11 cannot be used to support indivudual salvation.  

Two points in response:

 

1. Are you seriously arguing that God is unjust for not giving people a chance to argue that they “sinned in self-defense” and should not be held guilty for the sins they committed?  The correct legal term for this is called “extenuating circumstances” and not a “second chance”.  People wil have an opportunity to appear before the ‘bema’ or Judgement Seat of Christ where all of their thoughts and actions will be revealed and the Justice of God’s Judgement will be shown.

 

2.  You ignored Romans 1-3 where most of my points on the guilt of men and the actions of God towards sinful men was revealed.  I am happy to discuss Romans 9-11 in detail, but not at the expense of derailing this topic on salvation.  My emphasis in quoting from Romans 9 was a very narrow dialogue on the Soverignty of God in response to a particular criticism.  If you wish to discuss Romans 9-11 in detail, then start a new topic and I will join you.  We can take it paragraph by paragraph if you wish ... but not in this topic.  

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Solas
37 minutes ago, atpollard said:

Sure.

FIRST POINT: You are looking at things from the wrong perspective.

 

I come at this whole Christianity thing from radical Nihilism, so for me nothing is more important than finding the “Truth”.  So all I have to judge ‘truth’ by is what God’s word says (which can appear contradictory or at least confusing), what I think God’s word means based on reconciling ALL of the verses and their context (but I could be wrong) and my personal empirical experience from my own salvation (which is ‘heresay’ to anyone else, but irrefutable fact to me).  Based on those three sources of understanding, your questions have a fundamental flaw.  You are looking at things backwards. 

 

I said 'per response' I hadn't responded to this one and you tacked on 3 more. I'll take this one and see where it goes.

I came ...actually He brought me out of such things as Communist anarchy, Eastern religions (including Zen and Taoism) and revealed HIMSELF as Truth. Yes, God's written Word is the final arbiter of all such claims to 'truth' (compared to facts). So we end here, that my question has a fundamental flaw and I am looking at things backwards? 
Please explain.

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atpollard
1 minute ago, Solas said:

I said 'per response' I hadn't responded to this one and you tacked on 3 more. I'll take this one and see where it goes.

I came ...actually He brought me out of such things as Communist anarchy, Eastern religions (including Zen and Taoism) and revealed HIMSELF as Truth. Yes, God's written Word is the final arbiter of all such claims to 'truth' (compared to facts). So we end here, that my question has a fundamental flaw and I am looking at things backwards? 
Please explain.

Sure, for an explanation ... see the SECOND POINT.

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GodsGrace
5 hours ago, Becky said:

Act 20:28  Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 
Mar 9:41  For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. 
1Co 6:19  What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 
1Co 6:20  For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. 

 

He chose us  He purchased us  we belong to Him  How does the God of all, The Almighty  The Father  the Good Shepard   the king of Kings  Everlasting Father  loose anything ? 

Hi Becky,,,

All of the above are good.  You won't get any argument from me!

I DO believe we could become lost again after salvation.

 

It's not that the Father loses anyone,,,,it's that WE wish to leave HIM.

God does not force us to remain in Him for our salvation.   We had free will before we got saved, and that free will is not taken away from us.  If, for whatever reason we feel we want to abandon God and/or return to a life of sin,,,then we can do that.

 

Nothing can take us away from the love of God...but we could walk away from Him of our own free will.

 

None of the verses you posted speak about the impossibility of losing our salvation.  Here are some that do:

 

John 3:36

 36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

 

Clearly if we want to return to a life of sin,,,which some do,,,we will no longer be under the protection of Jesus, our Savior, because we will no longer be in His will.

 

Colossians 1:21-23

 21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 

22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 

23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

 

Paul warns the Colossians that they will be presented blameless and beyond reproach IF they CONTINUE in the faith---firmly established and steadfast, and if they are not moved away from the hope found in the gospel.

 

There would be no reason for verses like the above two if there were no possibility of becoming lost again.

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GodsGrace
4 hours ago, Faber said:

 If He chose not to save anyone He would still be just/righteous. The fact that He chooses just to save one is a testimony to His infinite mercy.

No Faber....

 

If God wanted to be ONLY a just God,  then He'd save no one

OR

Give everyone a chance to be saved.

 

What you describe does not show any mercy at all, and God IS a God of Justice, Mercy and Love.

 

He loves His most important creation and wishes that all would accept His terms and be saved...but not all will because of our free will.  God reveals Himself, but not all will say Yes to Him.

 

If I see 3 children drowning I should save all three...

If I save only 2, it's only because of two reasons:

 

1.  I have no mercy or feel any empathy toward the 3rd one.

2.  I am INCAPABLE of saving all 3.

 

The just God will either save all 3 or tell them to jump in His arms IF they WANT to be saved.

 

There can be no other way....

5 hours ago, William said:

Reformed are creedal and confessional. They are held by Reformed as a secondary authority. The main difference between Reformed confessions and those apostate Catholics is that our confessions are based on Scripture. If you have time read the WCF Chapter 1 which establishes Sola Scriptura. Scriptural references are available for the WCF.

If the WCF is backed up by scripture...why not  just use scripture which is the first authority?

 

Not everyone here is calvinist in theology and I'm hoping I don't have to learn the WCF !

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GodsGrace
4 hours ago, Faber said:

There are none.

 

 But there are so many clear verses that show we can not be lost after salvation.

 Ephesians 4:30 is one of them.

Ephesians 4:30

 30Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 

 

There are a couple of verses that speak about the sealing.

I believe you know the Early church Fathers, so you must know that the sealing refers mostly to baptism.  We are sealed in baptism.

 

Does this mean that everyone who is baptized will end up in heaven?

A person could be baptized and still fall away.  Paul and all the other writers of the N.T. were speaking to believers who either had been baptized or would soon be baptized.

 

It's still our free will that let's us remain IN CHRIST.

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Guest Becky
16 minutes ago, GodsGrace said:

Hi Becky,,,

All of the above are good.  You won't get any argument from me!

I DO believe we could become lost again after salvation.

 

It's not that the Father loses anyone,,,,it's that WE wish to leave HIM.

God does not force us to remain in Him for our salvation.   We had free will before we got saved, and that free will is not taken away from us.  If, for whatever reason we feel we want to abandon God and/or return to a life of sin,,,then we can do that.

 

Nothing can take us away from the love of God...but we could walk away from Him of our own free will.

 

None of the verses you posted speak about the impossibility of losing our salvation.  Here are some that do:

 

John 3:36

 36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

 

Clearly if we want to return to a life of sin,,,which some do,,,we will no longer be under the protection of Jesus, our Savior, because we will no longer be in His will.

 

Colossians 1:21-23

 21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 

22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 

23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

 

Paul warns the Colossians that they will be presented blameless and beyond reproach IF they CONTINUE in the faith---firmly established and steadfast, and if they are not moved away from the hope found in the gospel.

 

There would be no reason for verses like the above two if there were no possibility of becoming lost again.

Your understanding/teaching removes the power and sovereignty from God and gives it to people, to the created away from the Creator.  Elevating mankind to the level of God ..

Salvation is never by chance . It was not chance that sent Jesus the Christ to the Cross. 

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GodsGrace
4 hours ago, Faber said:

 You used this argument before even though it has already been refuted.

 

See post #47

https://www.christforums.com/forums/topic/19972-question-regarding-predestination-and-election/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-81609

 

I used the argument before and will use it again because it's the truth.

What do you mean it's been refuted?

 

Biblical scholars DO NOT agree with you....

Romans 9, 10, and 11 do not speak to individual salvation...

there is no question about this...

 

 

 

The elect that we read of in scripture refers to Israel...The Hebrews were the people elected by God to reveal Himself...It does not speak to individual election of persons to be saved...

 

 

There is much more on this if you're interested....

You cannot refute biblical scholars,,,you could only disagree with them.

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Solas
36 minutes ago, atpollard said:

Sure, for an explanation ... see the SECOND POINT.

I meant your comment ", that my question has a fundamental flaw and I am looking at things backwards? ".

 

Could you please explain, after all, it was just a question?

I guess I'm honored a simple question took five postings to try and answer it. Maybe that's all because I am looking at things backwards?

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Solas
10 minutes ago, GodsGrace said:

You cannot refute biblical scholars,,,you could only disagree with them.

GG, that's a bit of play on words there. 'Biblical scholars' first disagree then refute each other all the time. 

Edited by Solas

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Guest Becky

The Revelation tells us Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world

Rev_13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world
In reading the OT we see picture after picture of Jesus the Sacrificial  Lamb . We see salvation over and over God was telling us something . Back in Isaiah we are plainly told of Christ coming , His Sacrifice . 

Reference to the Blood of Christ starts in the Book of Genesis. God laid out  the plan of Salvation from the beginning. We see God choosing all through the OT. Again painting the picture of Salvation.  I see the Cross all that that cross entails  as the center of God's idea of History . He sent His Son and some would have you believe God is not just not Godly?  Folks have some foolish idea they are on equal plane  with our God at the center of His Salvation . 

 

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GodsGrace
3 hours ago, Solas said:

I suppose there should be a distinction made between the unregenerate and regenerate. Of course the regenerate should have a willingness to serve God. The unregenerate is serving satan with his unwillingness to serve God, but in the dealings of God on the unregenerate which I listed in the OP, does God go all the way and actually choose Himself for that unregenerate or is there that last step where the unregenerate actually makes a choice?

yes Solas,   I said that the person makes the last choice.

We're born dead  to God...born with a sin nature.  This sin nature causes us to tend toward sin..we are far from God and walking toward satan.

 

At some point in our life,,,we hear the gospel, or we see something on TV, or someone tells us about God---somehow we learn about God---,,,now that we know about God, we DO have a choice to make.

 

Do we continue walking toward satan, or

do we REPENT, turn around, and start walking toward God?

 

Repent means to change our mind, to turn around, to go the other way, or in the opposite direction.

 

What are the first words Jesus said when He began His ministry?

Mathew 4:17

17From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

 

Jesus was saying to turn to HIM,  to go toward God and salvation.

 

 

Luke 24:46-48

46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,

47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 You are witnesses of these things.

 

 

Luke 5:31-32

31 Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.

32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

 

All who repent belong to God.

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GodsGrace
8 minutes ago, Solas said:

GG, that's a bit of play on words there. 'Biblical scholars' first disagree then refute each other all the time. 

How is it a play on words??

 

Biblical scholars could REFUTE what they each say.  You hear this in formal debates.

 

I don't know if anyone here has a PhD after their name...even if they did...

they could disagree with me...but they can't REFUTE what I say if I offer biblical support.

 

I did't make up my own doctrine...everything I say I can back up with scripture, and scripture IS our authority...at least for me it is, and I  think for everyone here.

 

Here is the meaning of refute:

 

• REFUTE (verb)
  

1. overthrow by argument, evidence, or proof
2. prove to be false or incorrect

 

How is what I said false or incorrect if the N.T. is saying it....not me.

So, someone could disagree --- but not refute.

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Solas
2 minutes ago, GodsGrace said:

yes Solas,   I said that the person makes the last choice.

We're born dead  to God...born with a sin nature.  This sin nature causes us to tend toward sin..we are far from God and walking toward satan.

 

At some point in our life,,,we hear the gospel, or we see something on TV, or someone tells us about God---somehow we learn about God---,,,now that we know about God, we DO have a choice to make.

 

Do we continue walking toward satan, or

do we REPENT, turn around, and start walking toward God?

 

Repent means to change our mind, to turn around, to go the other way, or in the opposite direction.

 

What are the first words Jesus said when He began His ministry?

Mathew 4:17

17From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

 

Jesus was saying to turn to HIM,  to go toward God and salvation.

 

 

Luke 24:46-48

46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,

47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 You are witnesses of these things.

 

 

Luke 5:31-32

31 Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.

32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

 

All who repent belong to God.

Seems like we are missing something here...

 

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 16:16-17)
 

It takes more than just 'hearing about' in order to repent and believe, it also takes that revealing by the Father.

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Solas
3 minutes ago, GodsGrace said:

How is it a play on words??

 

Biblical scholars could REFUTE what they each say.  You hear this in formal debates.

 

I don't know if anyone here has a PhD after their name...even if they did...

they could disagree with me...but they can't REFUTE what I say if I offer biblical support.

 

I did't make up my own doctrine...everything I say I can back up with scripture, and scripture IS our authority...at least for me it is, and I  think for everyone here.

 

Here is the meaning of refute:

 

• REFUTE (verb)
  

1. overthrow by argument, evidence, or proof
2. prove to be false or incorrect

 

How is what I said false or incorrect if the N.T. is saying it....not me.

So, someone could disagree --- but not refute.

I guess I see it as a step in degrees. We first disagree, then refute...anyone. Even JWs call their high and mighty 'scholars'.

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GodsGrace
2 hours ago, Becky said:

Where do you read "of their own free will " in any of those verses ?

The word CHOICE denotes being able to choose between two different moral choices.....

Free will and free choice was given to Adam....

It was never taken away.

 

If it was,,,please post the scripture that explains this.

 

Revelation 22:18    John states that if anyone adds or takes away from his book God will add plagues to that person.

 

This requires free will....free choice to add or not to add.

 

Otherwise, God would determinate that someone would ADD to John's book and THEN send plagues on them?

 

John's warning makes no sense UNLESS a person has free will to choose.

 

Revelation 22:18-19

 18I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 

19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

 

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Guest

Everyone needs to take a deep breath.  I sense people are getting frustrated.

 

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GodsGrace
1 hour ago, atpollard said:

Was Satan given a chance to be saved?

 

God forces no one to sin, does he, so where is the injustice in condemning the guilty?

What?

Satan WAS saved....he's an angel --- not a human. 

He did, however, make the free will choice to disobey God and was banished from heaven.  God did not cause satan to sin.

 

We're guilty when we're born...scripture teaches this.

God sent His only Son to redeem us from the bondage to satan.

WE have the choice to free ourselves by accepting this sacrifice of Jesus' 

or not.

 

John 3:16-18

 16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 

17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 

18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 

 

This is what Jesus tells the woman at the well in Samaria:

 

John 4:14

14but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

 

God IS JUST because He gives us the opportunity to save ourselves.

If we do not accept that opportunity we have no one to blame but ourselves.

This is confirmed in Romans 1:19-20 ---- it says that God revealed Himself to mankind, so that we are without excuse.

 

Romans 1:19-20

19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 

20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

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GodsGrace
1 hour ago, atpollard said:

Two points in response:

 

1. Are you seriously arguing that God is unjust for not giving people a chance to argue that they “sinned in self-defense” and should not be held guilty for the sins they committed?  The correct legal term for this is called “extenuating circumstances” and not a “second chance”.  People wil have an opportunity to appear before the ‘bema’ or Judgement Seat of Christ where all of their thoughts and actions will be revealed and the Justice of God’s Judgement will be shown.

 

2.  You ignored Romans 1-3 where most of my points on the guilt of men and the actions of God towards sinful men was revealed.  I am happy to discuss Romans 9-11 in detail, but not at the expense of derailing this topic on salvation.  My emphasis in quoting from Romans 9 was a very narrow dialogue on the Soverignty of God in response to a particular criticism.  If you wish to discuss Romans 9-11 in detail, then start a new topic and I will join you.  We can take it paragraph by paragraph if you wish ... but not in this topic.  

Did I use the term "second chance"?  I truly doubt it.

If someone kills in self-defense he does not end up in prison.

As to judgement after death,,,,yes, this is scriptural...no problem.

 

Romans 9 to 11.   You have this time?

We could try....I don't know if I'll be able to devote a lot of time to it,,but we could give it a go.  You're going to give me the calvinist side from what I can gather...and I'll give you what every other scholar says about those 3 chapters.

 

Start it...

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GodsGrace
1 hour ago, Becky said:

Your understanding/teaching removes the power and sovereignty from God and gives it to people, to the created away from the Creator.  Elevating mankind to the level of God ..

Salvation is never by chance . It was not chance that sent Jesus the Christ to the Cross. 

How does my doing ANYTHING remove any sovereignty from God?

God IS SOVEREIGN.  How does a human take that away?

You seem, to me, to be speaking about a very weak God that has to somehow hold on tight to His sovereignty.  The God I believe in does not have this fear.

He has NO FEAR at all.

 

You say salvation is never by chance and yet you believe that YOU are saved by chance.  God had to choose someone, and He just happened to choose you.

Based on nothing at all.

 

BTW,  how do you even know you're saved for sure if you had no choice at all or no say at all?  How could a person know that they are one of the lucky few?

 

I know I'm saved because God called me, like He calls everyone, and I responded with a definite YES.  And I know that for as long as I dwell with Jesus, I am safe and secure in His arms.

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