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Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” - Genesis 2:18
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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
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Solas

For Conversion God Must at Least. ? !

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Guest William

I love this meme

 

Christforums.jpg.6e47178c7f4a7498396fac92a99f5415.jpg

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atpollard
1 hour ago, Deidre said:

God offers ALL the gift of His grace, the gift of His son. Jesus died for ALL but not ALL will accept God's grace.

Explain to me how that works for all the people who lived and died in North, Central and South America between AD 33 and AD 1492?

I am having trouble seeing how God offered those people His grace and THEY are responsible for rejecting Jesus' sacrifice.

 

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Solas
4 hours ago, GodsGrace said:

 

Romans 1 is not referring to devils but to man.

It's saying that those who do not accept God are responsible for their non-acceptance because they are without excuse.

 

This means that MAN is responsible for his salvation since God gave man the opportunity to be saved but some men do not accept it.

 I already said, "Romans 1 is explaining the general revelation about God leaving man without excuse." I'm also saying 'accepting God' will not save a person. It also takes special revelation given by His Spirit and Word. A religious Jew believes God is powerful and all knowing etc., but that doesn't save Him.

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GodsGrace
34 minutes ago, Solas said:

 I already said, "Romans 1 is explaining the general revelation about God leaving man without excuse." I'm also saying 'accepting God' will not save a person. It also takes special revelation given by His Spirit and Word. A religious Jew believes God is powerful and all knowing etc., but that doesn't save Him.

I never heard of what you're saying.

 

Could you post some scripture please?

 

The jailer in Acts asked how he could be saved and Peter told him to believe in the Lord and he would be saved.  He didn't speak about any special revelation.

 

Romans says to confess with the mouth and believe with the heart....it doesn't speak about any special revelation.

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GodsGrace
1 hour ago, atpollard said:

Explain to me how that works for all the people who lived and died in North, Central and South America between AD 33 and AD 1492?

I am having trouble seeing how God offered those people His grace and THEY are responsible for rejecting Jesus' sacrifice.

 

Have you read Romans?

Have you read Romans 1:19-20?

Do you understand what it means?

 

Could you explain it please, because it seems as if you do NOT understand it.

 

God has ALWAYS BEEN KNOWN....

Didn't Abel and Cain know God?

 

What does North and Central America have to do with anything??

And the years 33AD to 1492AD?

 

There's something here you don't quite get....

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GodsGrace
1 hour ago, William said:

I love this meme

 

Christforums.jpg.6e47178c7f4a7498396fac92a99f5415.jpg

Uh oh.  

I think I'm the crying baby or

cry baby.

 

Actually, I think of myself more like this:

 

image.png.2c22576d9cbe1013ee3334d70bc8ce5e.png

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GodsGrace
2 hours ago, atpollard said:

Because the title of the topic is ...

 

For Conversion God Must at Least. ? !

 

[John 12:32 NASB] 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

 

Was every single person (without exception) living in China and Australia and the Americas drawn to Christ when he was crucified ("lifted up")?

Does "all" mean "all without exception"?

 

 

A,

 

I just realized what you mean by the above.

 

You mean that not everyone heard about Jesus,,,or maybe still doesn't.

But He STILL died for the sins of the whole world.  He atoned for the sins of anyone that wants to believe in Jesus for their redemption from satan's grip.

 

1 John 2:2

 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

 

John 1:29

  29The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 

 

In a way that is not understandable to us,,,Jesus died for everyone's sins that ever lived...past, present and future.

 

Even those that died in faith in the O.T. were waiting to be redeemed by Jesus.  His sacrifice runs thru time,,,,God is not a part of time.  Jesus died for all our sins...for all those who accept His sacrifice.

Again, this is noted in John 3:16

 

See also 2 Corinthians 5:17-19

 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 

18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 

19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

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Deidre
2 hours ago, atpollard said:

Explain to me how that works for all the people who lived and died in North, Central and South America between AD 33 and AD 1492?

I am having trouble seeing how God offered those people His grace and THEY are responsible for rejecting Jesus' sacrifice.

 

I have read this passage before, and it fits with what we're talking about, I think. Ezekiel 37:1-14

 

“The hand of the Lord came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones. Then He caused me to pass by them all around, and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and indeed they were very dry. And He said to me, ‘Son of man, can these bones live?’ So I answered, ‘O Lord God, You know."

 

“Again He said to me, ‘Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, “O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! Thus says the Lord God to these bones: ‘Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live. I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the Lord.’”

 

 

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Solas
2 hours ago, GodsGrace said:

I never heard of what you're saying.

 

Could you post some scripture please?

 

The jailer in Acts asked how he could be saved and Peter told him to believe in the Lord and he would be saved.  He didn't speak about any special revelation.

 

Romans says to confess with the mouth and believe with the heart....it doesn't speak about any special revelation.

I already gave...

 

Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
(Mat 16:16-17)
 

Then here are some others...

 

Galatians 1:11-12 (KJV) But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

Galatians 1:15-16 (KJV) But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

 

Matthew 11:27 (KJV) All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

 

Luke 10:22 (KJV) All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

 

(Notice we can only know the Father via the Son)

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GodsGrace
19 hours ago, Solas said:

I already gave...

 

Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
(Mat 16:16-17)
 

Then here are some others...

 

Galatians 1:11-12 (KJV) But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

Galatians 1:15-16 (KJV) But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

 

Matthew 11:27 (KJV) All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

 

Luke 10:22 (KJV) All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

 

(Notice we can only know the Father via the Son)

We've been through this...I'm not one to go on forever about one topic.....

 

What I was asking scripture for is when you said that just knowing God cannot save us...or at least that's what I meant.  If we KNOW God, and ACCEPT God, we are saved.

 

I believe you said that just our accepting God is not enough to be saved.

Sorry if I misunderstood.

 

As to your comment that we can only know the Father via the Son....

The N.T. also says that we can only know the Son via the Father....

 

They're both right...

They're both God...and God draws us to Himself.

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Solas
21 minutes ago, GodsGrace said:

We've been through this...I'm not one to go on forever about one topic.....

 

What I was asking scripture for is when you said that just knowing God cannot save us...or at least that's what I meant.  If we KNOW God, and ACCEPT God, we are saved.

 

I believe you said that just our accepting God is not enough to be saved.

Sorry if I misunderstood.

 

As to your comment that we can only know the Father via the Son....

The N.T. also says that we can only know the Son via the Father....

 

They're both right...

They're both God...and God draws us to Himself.

Yes, they are both God but not both the Son or both the Father. There is no salvation outside the Mediator between God and man...the man Jesus Christ.

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GodsGrace
2 minutes ago, Solas said:

Yes, they are both God but not both the Son or both the Father. There is no salvation outside the Mediator between God and man...the man Jesus Christ.

Agreed on all.

But YOU said just accepting Jesus is not enough.

I might have misunderstood and won't look for the statement.

☺️

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Solas
4 minutes ago, GodsGrace said:

Agreed on all.

But YOU said just accepting Jesus is not enough.

I might have misunderstood and won't look for the statement.

☺️

Well some 'accept' Jesus intellectually or  as historical fact. as I recall our Lord said 'one must be born again'.

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Deidre

There are many people who say that they accept Jesus, but they don't follow Him. This could be why Jesus was noted as saying:

 

Matthew 7:21-23 

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

It's about having the right heart and life for Jesus, not just saying ''I believe.'' Even Satan knows Scripture and ''believes.'' 

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Guest William
18 minutes ago, Deidre said:

I never knew you

Anyone care to elaborate on what is said here?

 

Obviously Jesus knew too much about them, and they knew of Jesus. 

 

So why is Jesus saying that He never knew them?

 

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Deidre
26 minutes ago, William said:

Anyone care to elaborate on what is said here?

 

Obviously Jesus knew too much about them, and they knew of Jesus. 

 

So why is Jesus saying that He never knew them?

 

I think it means that there are many who ''know of'' Jesus, go to church...tithe...wear the name of ''Christian,'' but they don't have a heart for Jesus. Their faith is built on sand, and as soon as the waves come in, their faith is destroyed. The beauty of Scripture is that we don't have to wonder what Jesus expects of us if we say we are His follower. The Bible is clear, and it's not easy. There are days when we still stumble, and perhaps fall into sin, even after repenting of that same sin a week ago. But, it's in the daily striving to follow Jesus, to be the Light of Jesus for others to see, to surrender our lives to Him, that will cause Him to know us. Just my opinion. :)

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Faber
1 hour ago, William said:

Anyone care to elaborate on what is said here?

 

Obviously Jesus knew too much about them, and they knew of Jesus. 

 

So why is Jesus saying that He never knew them?

 

 

 These are the ones that have not been drawn by the Father (John 6:44). I say this because in Matthew 7:22 instead of appealing to His sacrificial blood and/or the mercy of God that saved them, they resort to defending their good works - which are nothing but filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). The will of My Father in Matthew 7:21 is answered in John 6:40.

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Guest Becky

Rev_17:8  The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 
 

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GodsGrace
2 hours ago, Deidre said:

There are many people who say that they accept Jesus, but they don't follow Him. This could be why Jesus was noted as saying:

 

Matthew 7:21-23 

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

It's about having the right heart and life for Jesus, not just saying ''I believe.'' Even Satan knows Scripture and ''believes.'' 

Hi D,

I like what you said above.  I do have a couple of comments:

 

1.  Saying I BELIEVE is very important...the problem is that many don't want to really know what believe means.  It means more than just an intellectual BELIEF, as you mentioned.  When the word believe is used in reference to believing in Jesus, it means to also trust Him, it means to follow Him, it means to want to emulate Him so He could be our good example as to how we should behave if we're to be included in the Kingdom of God --- here on earth, and also in the final Kingdom at the end of the ages. (the New Jerusalem).

 

I'll also say that the word believe carries with it the notion of obeying.  Disobeying means disbelieving in Greek...so believing means obeying.

 

2.  There's not too much we need to wonder about in Mathew 7:23.

You nailed it.  Jesus said that those to whom He will declare that He never knew them, are precisely those who practiced lawlessness...those without the law of God.  

 

Those who do not obey and are lawless will not make it into the presence of God.

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GodsGrace
26 minutes ago, Faber said:

 

 These are the ones that have not been drawn by the Father (John 6:44). I say this because in Matthew 7:22 instead of appealing to His sacrificial blood and/or the mercy of God that saved them, they resort to defending their good works - which are nothing but filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). The will of My Father in Matthew 7:21 is answered in John 6:40.

Sometimes Faber,

I get so tired of hearing that our works are as filthy rags to God.

 

Regarding John 6:40....in my post just above this is exactly what I was referring to...What does it mean to believe?  Is it just a mental belief?

 

And do you think God really looks at our works as if they were rags?

Look what the bible has to say about works:

 

 

Galatians 6:9 

And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

 

Colossians 3:17

And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

 

James 4:17

So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

 

James 2:26 

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

 

Hebrews 10:24 

And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,

 

Matthew 7:21-23

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

 

Titus 2:7-9 ESV / 

Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame,

 

 

Philippians 2:13 

For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

 

 

James 1:27 

Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

 

Matthew 5:16 

In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

 

2 Timothy 3:17 

That the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

 

Titus 3:14 

And let our people learn to devote themselves to good works, so as to help cases of urgent need, and not be unfruitful.

 

Colossians 3:23 

Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men,

Micah 6:8 ESV / 111 helpful votes

 

 

 

There are so many more it would take many posts....

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Guest William
28 minutes ago, Faber said:

 

 These are the ones that have not been drawn by the Father (John 6:44). I say this because in Matthew 7:22 instead of appealing to His sacrificial blood and/or the mercy of God that saved them, they resort to defending their good works - which are nothing but filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). The will of My Father in Matthew 7:21 is answered in John 6:40.

So many try to be known to Jesus through good works. Also the verse says nothing about people never knowing Jesus. The verse does say Jesus never knew you. Interestingly "never knew" contrasts "foreknew". Those which point to their works here in Matthew 7 are then trying to twist Romans 8:29-30 as if foreknowledge of works is a condition of Election. Contrary to such twisting Jesus never knew them, that is from before the foundation of the world they were never objects of His affection. 

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Faber
18 minutes ago, GodsGrace said:

Sometimes Faber,

I get so tired of hearing that our works are as filthy rags to God.

 

Regarding John 6:40....in my post just above this is exactly what I was referring to...What does it mean to believe?  Is it just a mental belief?

 

And do you think God really looks at our works as if they were rags?

Look what the bible has to say about works:

 Then you misunderstood. In Matthew 7:22 these are works performed by unsaved people in order to obtain righteousness with God. 

 

 A Christian ought to work out (not work for) their salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

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GodsGrace
12 hours ago, Faber said:

 Then you misunderstood. In Matthew 7:22 these are works performed by unsaved people in order to obtain righteousness with God. 

 

 A Christian ought to work out (not work for) their salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

Where does it say anything about being saved or unsaved?

Mathew 7 speaks about trees bearing good fruit or bad fruit.

I agree with @Deidre,,,some SAY they follow Jesus, but they really do not.

 

Jesus plainly said WHO He was speaking about in Mathew 7:23....

those that were LAWLESS,  those that heard but did not do.

 

James 1:22

22But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

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Faber
5 minutes ago, GodsGrace said:

Where does it say anything about being saved or unsaved?

  Since Christ said He never knew them and for these workers of iniquity to depart from Him, I am very sure that these are unsaved people.

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GodsGrace
8 minutes ago, Faber said:

  Since Christ said He never knew them and for these workers of iniquity to depart from Him, I am very sure that these are unsaved people.

Oh.  I agree....

Trees that bear bad fruit are not saved.

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