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Bowman

Is Satan bound today?

Is Satan bound today?  

9 members have voted

  1. 1. Is Satan bound today?



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Bowman
19 minutes ago, Faber said:

 

 

 Doesn't Revelation 12:12 warn us about the wrath of the Devil? If he is fully bound, why give the "woe" mentioned in this passage. He may have wrath, but if fully bound he is powerless which would mean there would be no cause for this warning. Moreover, Revelation 12:17 teaches that he will make war with believers. If bound then he would be powerless to make war.

 

Rev 12.17 declares that Satan went away 'apēlthen', in an absolute manner...hence, he was bound.

 

The fact that Satan is bound in Rev 12, is proven-out in Rev 13 which describes the fact that Satan is not there in person, as he must give his 'power' (demons) to the beast.

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Faber

 Not only is the power of God the Holy Spirit, but the power of God is also Christ (1 Corinthians 1:24) and the Father (Luke 1:35).

 The power of Satan is himself and his demons.

 

 Satan went off to make war and yet he was bound (Revelation 12:17)? He persecuted the church (and still does) according to Revelation 12:13. Since he is able to persecute it doesn't demonstrate that he is fully bound. Satan can still be there even though he gave his power. He simply delegates certain powers to others while he still retains power. Furthermore, if Satan was bound how is he able to delegate his authority (Revelation 13:2)? And in doing so he is worshiped for it (Revelation 13:4). They weren't rendering worship to a fully bound helpless being. He, along with the beast and the false prophet all continue to deceive (Revelation 16:13). If he is fully bound then how is able to perform these signs even as the other two...unless they are also fully bound? It doesn't make sense.

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Guest
12 hours ago, Bowman said:

Why not show your exegesis?

In order to exegesis a text one must thoroughly and objectively understand the grammar first.

 

12 hours ago, Bowman said:

Besides, there are legions of other scriptural passages that proudly declare that Satan is most assuredly bound today.

That does address the grammar of this text.

 

12 hours ago, Bowman said:

Now...either you have a contradiction in scripture....or, you have mis-interpreted 1 Peter...

Not according to the advance Greek grammars and scholarly lexicons I have cite.  Since you don't know Greek it is best to follow those who do know Greek.

 

12 hours ago, Bowman said:

Firstly, lexicons do indeed change it, as they list all possible semantics of any particular term.

You have not understood what I meant.  I said it is either the Devil or it is not (i.e. that is one or the other).  A lexicon won't change that fact.

 

12 hours ago, Bowman said:

Secondly, Wallace already informed the reader to use the 'entire noun phrase', not just a single word.

It really does not matter at this point.  Wallace clearly identifies διάβολος as monadic.  That is just a fact.  Moreover I cited two other advance Greek grammars both of which addressing the omission of the article and both of those reject your claim.  The evidence from expert Greek scholars is against your view.

 

12 hours ago, Bowman said:

To that end, Wallace is not in the business of performing exegesis, he merely provided his unreferenced opinion.

You have lost all credibility that last statement.  That claim is false.

 

1369148816_Image5-17-19at7_06AM.jpg.75dc196682d2931e66f5c0bd4509450a.jpg

 

Partial Bibliography

 

690758258_Image5-17-19at7_12AM.jpg.d4c28f77fdfed7bbdd6c05e5908bdb3f.jpg

 

Also note that:

Quote

As an internationally known Greek New Testament scholar, Wallace has been a consultant for four Bible translations—ESV, TNIV, New King James Bible, and New English Translation. He has also contributed articles to the ESV Study Bible and the Holman Christian Standard Study Bible.

DANIELBWALLACE.COM

Dan is Senior Research Professor of New Testament Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary (has taught there for more than 32 years) and Executive Director of the Center for the Study of New Testament...

 

Since it is blatantly obvious you don't know Greek, tell us what your qualifications are so that we may compare you and Wallace.

 

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Guest theophilus
19 hours ago, Becky said:

Are you of the understanding the pit, dragon, chain and key are literal as 1000?

Of course.  Why shouldn't they be?

 

13 hours ago, Bowman said:

Regarding 2 Cor 4.4, and, contrary to popular modern belief, ‘The God of this age’, (ho Theos tou aiōnos toutou), actually pertains to Jesus Christ and NOT Satan, and provides yet another potent scriptural proof for Jesus’ deity.

If that is the case, then Jesus himself is guilty of blinding people to the truth and keeping them from salvation.  Do you believe this?

 

13 hours ago, Bowman said:

The ‘1,000 years’ (Rev 20.2 – 7) is also referred to as ‘1260 days of prophecy’ (Rev 11.3); ‘1260 days of nourishment’ (Rev 12.6); ‘time, and times and half a time of nourishment’ (Rev 12.14); and ‘42 months’ (Rev 11.2; 13.5).

 

The important thing to remember is that numbers mark a time period in which events transpire....but not an exact time period that matches the number.

No, these other times refer to the period of three and one half years of tribulation preceding the return of Christ and the beginning of his millennial reign.  If the numbers in a time period don't tell how long it takes for the events to transpire what is the point of including them.

 

The Bible clearly teaches that Satan will be bound at the same time the beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire.

 

And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

Revelation 19:19-20:3 ESV

 

 

 

 

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Guest Becky
4 minutes ago, theophilus said:
20 hours ago, Becky said:

Are you of the understanding the pit, dragon, chain and key are literal as 1000?

Of course.  Why shouldn't they be?

I never said they should/shouldn't be . I was simply wanting to understand what you believe to be literal. 

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Guest William
24 minutes ago, theophilus said:

If that is the case, then Jesus himself is guilty of blinding people to the truth and keeping them from salvation.  Do you believe this?

What about verses such as 2 Thessalonians 2:11? Does God not deliver the wicked over to the reprobate mind Romans 1:28?

 

This is basic soteriology 101 Theo, do you believe there's any blame to lay upon the shoulders of God if he hardens, delivers, or passes over the reprobate? Isn't the "default" position of the natural man a state of spiritual blindness? Is the natural man capable of coming to Jesus or obtaining salvation without first being regenerated?

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Guest Becky

@theophilus 

Rev 20:1  And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 
Rev 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 
Rev 20:3  And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 

 

Who has the key ? 

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Guest
3 hours ago, theophilus said:

Why shouldn't they be?

You believe that Jesus possesses literal physical keys to death and hades (Rev. 1:18)?

 

You believe Jesus gives literal physical keys to the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 16:19)?

 

So some kind\type of physical barrier requires a physical key in order to open (i.e. unlock) death, hades, and the kingdom of heaven.

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atpollard
2 hours ago, William said:

What about verses such as 2 Thessalonians 2:11? Does God not deliver the wicked over to the reprobate mind Romans 1:28?

 

This is basic soteriology 101 Theo, do you believe there's any blame to lay upon the shoulders of God if he hardens, delivers, or passes over the reprobate? Isn't the "default" position of the natural man a state of spiritual blindness? Is the natural man capable of coming to Jesus or obtaining salvation without first being regenerated?

I do. God deliberately blinding people to the gospel describes the positive-positive schema Double Predestination, while God "passing over" the reprobate and "drawing" the elect describes the positive-negative schema Double Predestination.  The P-P Schema makes God the author of sin, the P-N Schema does not.  That sort of seems significant to me.

 

However, Theo's question was aimed directly at clarifying the beliefs of Bowman, so neither you nor I are qualified to answer what Bowman believes about the role of God in the unsaved.

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Guest William
11 hours ago, atpollard said:

I do. God deliberately blinding people to the gospel describes the positive-positive schema Double Predestination, while God "passing over" the reprobate and "drawing" the elect describes the positive-negative schema Double Predestination.  The P-P Schema makes God the author of sin, the P-N Schema does not.  That sort of seems significant to me.

 

However, Theo's question was aimed directly at clarifying the beliefs of Bowman, so neither you nor I are qualified to answer what Bowman believes about the role of God in the unsaved.

Sorry, but you're commenting on something I did not suggest though Theo obviously suggested that if God delivers or hardens another in their natural condition that He is accountable and responsible for the reprobate [double predestination]. Did you deliberately ignore "delivering" one over to a reprobate mind, causing delusion, derision, blinding, and also hardening etc for a reason? And I did not suggest God deliberately blinds people but all people are blind to the spiritual nature of the Gospel unless regenerated. It is God that works illumination into the Elect.

 

And while I am not qualified to answer "how" Bowman came to his theological conclusion as to whether Satan currently is bound I do believe Satan is most definitely bound. What I find is that the binding of Satan doesn't meet the criteria of pre-millennialist and I haven't been answered as of yet as to what the binding of Satan entails Scripturally. All I am gleaning from responses is that everything is pushed forward in time and I'm left wondering according to pre-millennialist what if anything Jesus accomplished on the cross. One of the theological implications I question is whether Satan has the power to possess the Elect or oppress them so greatly that Jesus loses some? If not and the Elect [from all tribes, tongues, and nations] are drawn to Christ then Satan is bound in a most definite sense concerning the Elect. He is powerless and is like a strong man bound which Christ Jesus is plundering His goods.

 

What I find pre-millennialist "want" is for Satan to be bound to a degree that every man is capable of coming to Christ without influence making salvation dependent on man's autonomous or libertarian will or no persecution by enemies which may take the life of the Elect here and now. They'll pass the blame upon Satan [and questionably God for allowing this to happen to the reprobate] when rightly the blame should be on the reprobate and the nature of Adam in which they were born in. The theological implication I reject is that Satan is always responsible for man's inability to save people by preaching of the Gospel [God's works]. Though this is a double sided problem for the reprobate because they are bound by their sin nature and Satan IS their master. Does that prove that Satan is not bound? Far from it, but only from the unbiblical criteria of those wishful thinkers that believe all men should be free. Sorry, but the reprobate [non-Elect] were, are, and will be under Satan.

 

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atpollard
10 minutes ago, William said:

Did you deliberately ignore "delivering" one over to a reprobate mind and also hardening of one for reason?

2 Corinthians 4:4 was the verse that Bowman cited ... and Theo was responding to ... that you then commented on Theo's response about.

If ‘The God of this age’ in 2 Corinthians 4:4 is actually Jesus Christ, as Bowman claims, then "The God of this age/Jesus Christ" is the one who has taken an active role and "blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

 

Does God actively draw some to salvation and push the rest away from salvation (by actively blinding and hardening them)?

 

("Delivering" can be taken as either passive action by God or an active compelling by God, so I believe that God is more like an Uber driver dropping the reprobate off where they wanted to go, rather than the Captain of a slave ship delivering his unwilling passengers over to the prison colony of hedonism.)

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Guest William
30 minutes ago, atpollard said:

2 Corinthians 4:4 was the verse that Bowman cited ... and Theo was responding to ... that you then commented on Theo's response about.

If ‘The God of this age’ in 2 Corinthians 4:4 is actually Jesus Christ, as Bowman claims, then "The God of this age/Jesus Christ" is the one who has taken an active role and "blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

 

Does God actively draw some to salvation and push the rest away from salvation (by actively blinding and hardening them)?

 

("Delivering" can be taken as either passive action by God or an active compelling by God, so I believe that God is more like an Uber driver dropping the reprobate off where they wanted to go, rather than the Captain of a slave ship delivering his unwilling passengers over to the prison colony of hedonism.)

I'm not jumping in between Theo and Bowman. I asked Theo a direct question.

 

I don't agree with God causing blindness to a person if they were able to see by nature but my point is that they are blind already. And though the reprobate are made in the image of God they are blind to spiritual things and unable to comprehend them.

 

Regarding Thessalonians 2:11 God causes a delusion. Exactly what is a delusion and how does that affect the mind from seeing clearly? Are we talking about physical blindness or spiritual blindness? I'm not making the case as if Angels blinded man in Sodom and Gomorrah or whether man was born spiritually blind due to God's direct and active intervention as if they'd be born with the ability to see spiritually by nature.

 

And you seemingly reject that the Reprobate are already under bondage both by nature and to Satan? God doesn't need to drive them anywhere but He can harden them like He did Pharaoh in order to bring about an outcome for His glory. Do you believe that all men are going to "one day" be free from the bondage of their sin nature and Satan? Exactly what does the binding of Satan mean?

 

As to whether I believe 2 Corinthians 4:4 is God or Satan I think Satan. And as to whether I believe God actively hardens etc, Yes.

 

However, my question still stands to Theo.

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Guest William

@Origen what can you suggest about the word "world" used here? In my mind the world cannot refer to all men without exception because there are those here which are "servants for Jesus" as He is our Lord which stands in contrast to "others" which are under "the god of this world". 

 

4 Therefore, having this ministry yby the mercy of God,1 we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants 3 for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

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Guest
1 hour ago, William said:

Origen what can you suggest about the word "world" used here?  In my mind the world cannot refer to all men without exception...

There is no grammatical reason to understand it as a reference to "all men without exception."

 

The Greek word is αἰών.  It refers to "an extended period of time."  It is "a segment of time as a particular unit of history, age."

 

In this case it is a reference to the "the present age," "the ruler of this age is the devil..."  See A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. 3rd Ed. p. 32.

 

The vast majority of scholars take it as a reference to the Devil, Satan.    Even though Satan\the Devil is described as a ruler, a prince, and a god his authority is never considered absolute or irrevocable.  It always has limitation (see Job).

 

It seems to me the prefect backdrop to 2 Cor. 4:4 is Acts 28:15-18.

 

"And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles— to whom I am sending you to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’"

 

 

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Bowman
22 hours ago, Faber said:

 Not only is the power of God the Holy Spirit, but the power of God is also Christ (1 Corinthians 1:24) and the Father (Luke 1:35).

 The power of Satan is himself and his demons.

 

 

Incorrect.

 

You cannot blend each Person of The Trinity into each other.

 

The Power of God is ONLY the Third Person of The Trinity.

 

The First and Second Persons of The Trinity send the Third Person of The Trinity.

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Bowman
22 hours ago, Faber said:

 

 Satan went off to make war and yet he was bound (Revelation 12:17)? 

 

Same term used in Jesus’ parable…

 

He put before them another parable, saying: The kingdom of Heaven is compared to a Man having sown good seed(singular) in his field. But while the men were sleeping, one hostile to Him came and sowed tares (plural) in the midst of the wheat, AND WENT AWAY. And when the blade (singular) sprouted and produced fruit, then the tares (plural) also appeared. And coming near, the slaves of the housemaster said to him, Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? Then from where does it have the tares? And he said to them, A man, an enemy did this. And the slaves said to him, Do you desire, then, that going out we should gather them? But he said, No, lest gathering the tares you should uproot the wheat(singular) with them. Allow both to grow together until the harvest. And in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, First gather the tares, and bind them into bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my granary.  (Mat 13.24 – 30)

22 hours ago, Faber said:

  He persecuted the church (and still does) according to Revelation 12:13. Since he is able to persecute it doesn't demonstrate that he is fully bound. 

 

Show us...

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Faber
12 minutes ago, Bowman said:

The Power of God is ONLY the Third Person of The Trinity.

 

 Christ the power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).

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Bowman
22 hours ago, Faber said:

 

  Since he is able to persecute it doesn't demonstrate that he is fully bound. Satan can still be there even though he gave his power. He simply delegates certain powers to others while he still retains power. 

 

Other than his 'power' pertaining to the demons, what other power does scripture say that he has?

22 hours ago, Faber said:

   Furthermore, if Satan was bound how is he able to delegate his authority (Revelation 13:2)? 

 

His only 'power' is his demons.

 

Why would he not be there in person?

 

Think....

Edited by Bowman

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Bowman
22 hours ago, Faber said:

  And in doing so he is worshiped for it (Revelation 13:4).

 

Because he had given his 'power' (i.e. demons) to the beast (mankind).

 

Context...

22 hours ago, Faber said:

They weren't rendering worship to a fully bound helpless being. He, along with the beast and the false prophet all continue to deceive (Revelation 16:13). If he is fully bound then how is able to perform these signs even as the other two...unless they are also fully bound? It doesn't make sense.

 

Please show us just ONE scriptural example of Satan possessing anyone AFTER the Cross.

 

Good luck...:)

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Faber
1 minute ago, Bowman said:

 

Because he had given his 'power' (i.e. demons) to the beast (mankind).

 

Context...

 Agree. Context. 

 He was worshiped and they aren't going to worship a helpless being bereft of any power. And since he had given them power proves he had the power to do so.

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Bowman
13 minutes ago, Faber said:

 

 Christ the power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).

 

13 minutes ago, Faber said:

 

 Christ the power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).

 

Not exactly.

 

Both 'power' and 'wisdom' are anarthrous in this passage...and do NOT pertain to Jesus...rather each pertains to the Holy Spirit which indwells in Jesus.

 

Remember that Jesus was filled with The Holy Spirit after His baptism...

5 minutes ago, Faber said:

 Agree. Context. 

 He was worshiped and they aren't going to worship a helpless being bereft of any power. And since he had given them power proves he had the power to do so.

 

Where is Satan mentioned as being present?

 

Why would Satan, as powerful as he is, not be able to make it in person?

 

Simple....because he is bound and can't make it...so he sends his minion...

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Faber
4 minutes ago, Bowman said:

 

 

Not exactly.

 

Both 'power' and 'wisdom' are anarthrous in this passage...and do NOT pertain to Jesus...rather each pertains to the Holy Spirit which indwells in Jesus.

 

Remember that Jesus was filled with The Holy Spirit after His baptism...

 The Father dwelt in Jesus as well (John 14:10).

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Bowman
9 minutes ago, Faber said:

 The Father dwelt in Jesus as well (John 14:10).

 

Agreed.

 

Yet The Father is NOT The Son...

12 hours ago, theophilus said:

 

If that is the case, then Jesus himself is guilty of blinding people to the truth and keeping them from salvation.  Do you believe this?

 

 

 

 

 

Of course!

 

That is what the OT clearly states of Yahweh.

 

Do you not yet know your scripture?

Edited by Bowman

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Faber
18 minutes ago, Bowman said:

 

Please show us just ONE scriptural example of Satan possessing anyone AFTER the Cross.

 

Good luck...:)

 

 He possesses people in that he is still able to hold some captive  to do his will (2 Timothy 2:26).

2 minutes ago, Bowman said:

 

Agreed.

 

Yet The Father is NOT The Son...

 

Of course!

 

That is what OT clearly states of Yahweh.

 

Do you not yet know your scripture?

 

 I never asserted that the Father is the Son.

 Do you not yet know how to read?

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Bowman
12 hours ago, theophilus said:

 

No, these other times refer to the period of three and one half years of tribulation preceding the return of Christ and the beginning of his millennial reign.  If the numbers in a time period don't tell how long it takes for the events to transpire what is the point of including them.

 

The Bible clearly teaches that Satan will be bound at the same time the beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire.

 

And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

Revelation 19:19-20:3 ESV

 

 

 

 

 

Incorrect.

 

Revelation repeats events over and over again.

 

The passage that you quoted is in the aorist (past tense)...Satan has already been bound....

7 minutes ago, Faber said:

 

 He possesses people in that he is still able to hold some captive  to do his will (2 Timothy 2:26).

 

 

 

Incorrect.

 

The 'Devil's snare' is what has already occurred to Satan at The Cross...i.e. he was judged at that point, according to scripture.

If you look at the five Greek locations of this word (and its inflections), you can easily see that this has everything to do will falling into the trap of being Judged, of which, Satan has already been.

This passage is a predicament of Judgment....NOT a declaration of Satan's authority.

 

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