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Welcome to SovereignGraceSingles.com. Where Reformed Faith and Romance Come Together! We are the only Christian dating website for Christian Singles in the Reformed Faith worldwide. Our focus is to bring together Christian singles of all ages. Reformed single Christian men and women who wish to meet other Reformed Christian singles for spiritually, like-minded, loving relationships.
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Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” - Genesis 2:18
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Meet Like Minded Believers Can two walk together except they be agreed? - Amos 3:3
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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
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SGS offers a "fenced" community: both for private single members and also a public Protestant forums open to Bible-believing Christians such as Presbyterians, Lutherans, Reformed, Baptists, Church of Christ members, Pentecostals, Anglicans. Methodists, Charismatics, or any other conservative, Nicene-derived Christian Church.
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Guest William

Multiple Question CF Polling: Which is the lesser?

Two Part Poll: Impostors and False Teachers  

10 members have voted

  1. 1. Which are impostors [Light to all nations]?

    • The Catholic Church [Pope]
      3
    • Islam [Muhammad]
      3
    • The Nation of Israel [Modern]
      0
    • None of the above
      3
    • All the above
      4
  2. 2. Which is the best source of theology?

    • PragerU [Jewish]
      0
    • The Blaze [Mormon]
      0
    • Duck Dynasty [Evangelist]
      2
    • All the above
      0
    • None of the above
      8


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Ben Asher
10 minutes ago, William said:

What of the Jews which have rejected the Messiah that have died to this day in unbelief?

William as I stated before:

I am not a dispensation!

I hold to an amillennial interpretation of scripture and I believe that Messiah has already come and as already done what he was promised to do. He did set up his kingdom and he is still bringing the remnant into his kingdom. Those of unbelief be that ethical Jewish or not are clearly not part of Messiah kingdom/community/Church.

 

 

 

 

 

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Guest William
8 minutes ago, Ben Asher said:

It is clear that the modern mostly secular state of Israel is a not the faithful remnant!

Thank you!!! Have you ever heard the term RINO? In the political party there are false Republicans which are Republican in name only. I'd like to coin a new term IINO Israel in name only. 

8 minutes ago, Ben Asher said:

What part of my response do you find unbelievable?

That you consider unbelieving Jews no matter what state they live pertinent to this discussion. 

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Guest William
12 minutes ago, Ben Asher said:

William as I stated before:

I am not a dispensation!

I hold to an amillennial interpretation of scripture and I believe that Messiah has already come and as already done what he was promised to do. He did set up his kingdom and he is still bringing the remnant into his kingdom. Those of unbelief be that ethical Jewish or not are clearly not part of Messiah kingdom/community/Church.

 

I'm not questioning your personal belief. What I'm questioning are those which hold in high esteem the state of Israel and believe that today that "mostly secular state" is entitled to our utmost loyalty as though they are God's chosen Elect.  

 

I expected people to come debate me in this thread for what I posted. Rather than evangelize a lot and I mean a lot of American Christians are too busy trying to support a secular state as though they are biblical Israel. I get tired of hearing people suggest we need to support the state of Israel by way of multiplying horses and chariots. 

 

As to your conclusion, THANK YOU!!!

 

Note, I support Israel for "political reasoning". 

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Ben Asher
Just now, William said:

That you consider unbelieving Jews no matter what state they live pertinent to this discussion. 

(1) Do they not also need Messiah/Christ?  Shouldn't Christians also try to share the Gospel with them, too?

Yes, I believe so which why I believe them to be pertinent to this discussion.

 

(2) I thought one of your questions that seemed to me to be a false dichotomy equated the state of Israel with all Jewish people or simply ignored the communities if Jews outside of Israel.

If, Christians are to be God's light to the nations what then is the purpose of  Christians willing ignore groups of people or individuals Just because the groups of people rejected Christ in the past? If you believe so then maybe missionaries in Japan should all leave, too. After all the Japanese as a whole of Historically reject Christ? I am sorry but such logic makes little sense to me.

 

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Guest William
5 minutes ago, Ben Asher said:

(1) Do they not also need Messiah/Christ?  Shouldn't Christians also try to share the Gospel with them, too?

Yes, I believe so which why I believe them to be pertinent to this discussion.

 

(2) I thought one of your questions that seemed to me to be a false dichotomy equated the state of Israel with all Jewish people or simply ignored the communities if Jews outside of Israel.

If, Christians are to be God's light to the nations what then is the purpose of  Christians willing ignore groups of people or individuals Just because the groups of people rejected Christ in the past? If you believe so then maybe missionaries in Japan should all leave, too. After all the Japanese as a whole of Historically reject Christ? I am sorry but such logic makes little sense to me.

 

1) Jews are saved all the time. When they are saved they are no longer considered "Jews" but "IN CHRIST". 

 

2) I never suggested nor do I believe that every citizen of the state of Israel is Jewish. 

 

As far as missionaries in Japan if they are likened to Americans which try to gain support for the state of Israel calling them a light to all nations then I think they should.

 

That last point number 2 was something Nazi Germany battled in the think tank. How do you define a Jew? By blood descent? If so by how many generations or fractions etc. Or, if one is an adherent of Judaism are they a Jew? 

 

This is a touchy subject, or at least I feel it is because the Jewish people draw great sympathy from a lot of people. Perhaps more so than for their own good? That is, spiritually speaking. 

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Ben Asher
3 minutes ago, William said:

I'm not questioning your personal belief. What I'm questioning are those which hold in high esteem the state of Israel and believe that today that "mostly secular state" is entitled to our utmost loyalty as though they are God's chosen Elect.  

AH, okay thank you for stating that

 

5 minutes ago, William said:

I expected people to come debate me in this thread for what I posted. Rather than evangelize a lot and I mean a lot of American Christians are too busy trying to support a secular state as though they are biblical Israel. I get tired of hearing people suggest we need to support the state of Israel by way of multiplying horses and chariots. 

Okay! Thanks for the background I had no idea what current American Christians were doing

 

6 minutes ago, William said:

As to your conclusion, THANK YOU!!!. 

And thank you

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Ben Asher
1 minute ago, William said:

1) Jews are saved all the time. When they are saved they are no longer considered "Jews" but "IN CHRIST".

Does Christianity erase one's ethnicity? After all I see that there are individuals who consider themselves to be Korean Christians, Japanese Christians, Chinese Christians, Black Christians, Anglo Christians, mixed race/ethic Christians like myself, and so on. And I do not see any Ministers, Preaches, or Revs arguing against the practice of other groups retaining their other identities after becoming a Christian. In which case the concept Messianic Jews (historically called Hebrew Christians at least in English) does not seem to be out of place. What of texts like 1 Corinthians 7:18? Paul seems there to argue that if one was circumcised or born into a Jewish they should not attempt to hide their identity. Galatians 3:28 is another interesting passage related to this for just as Paul states their is neither Jew nor Greek he immediately parallels it with neither male nor female and yet difference males and females continue to exist to this day (as well a for that matter in Paul's letters). I am pretty sure males and females can not go to the same restroom at the same time in most Churches. So, I see in the Bible the point that in Jesus all are save in the same way and in that no one has an advantage over another. However, differences and ethnicity still do exist even when one because a Christian.

 

BUT Yes, I also it would be better if everyone could agree on the same congregation and worship together in unity rather than Sunday becoming the most segregated day of the week.

 

24 minutes ago, William said:

2) I never suggested nor do I believe that every citizen of the state of Israel is Jewish. 

Thank you for clarifying

 

25 minutes ago, William said:

How do you define a Jew? By blood descent? If so by how many generations or fractions etc. Or, if one is an adherent of Judaism are they a Jew? 

This is a touchy subject,

Yes, thank you for you sensitivity and in understanding nuances. It is a controversial subject both in and out stated of the political state of Israel.

 

Grace and Peace

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Guest William
4 hours ago, Ben Asher said:

Does Christianity erase one's ethnicity? After all I see that there are individuals who consider themselves to be Korean Christians, Japanese Christians, Chinese Christians, Black Christians, Anglo Christians, mixed race/ethic Christians like myself, and so on. And I do not see any Ministers, Preaches, or Revs arguing against the practice of other groups retaining their other identities after becoming a Christian. In which case the concept Messianic Jews (historically called Hebrew Christians at least in English) does not seem to be out of place. What of texts like 1 Corinthians 7:18? Paul seems there to argue that if one was circumcised or born into a Jewish they should not attempt to hide their identity. Galatians 3:28 is another interesting passage related to this for just as Paul states their is neither Jew nor Greek he immediately parallels it with neither male nor female and yet difference males and females continue to exist to this day (as well a for that matter in Paul's letters). I am pretty sure males and females can not go to the same restroom at the same time in most Churches. So, I see in the Bible the point that in Jesus all are save in the same way and in that no one has an advantage over another. However, differences and ethnicity still do exist even when one because a Christian.

To your whole response let me write out my immediate thoughts and quickly say while my dinner is cooking that some people are so superficial [outward display] that their whole identity is based on from not only the place they were born, color of their skin, but sexual orientation. Isn't this what we are facing as the church battles racial segregation, hyphenated-Christianity as well as sexual identity [LGBT]?

 

Furthermore, Israel was always meant to be set apart, that is, to be a holy people. Isn't a recurring theme throughout the Bible not to take on the ways of the cultures of surrounding heathen nations? That is, whether alien or a citizen ourselves? Take for example the very principle of OT law concerning tattoos and markings, some people today think nothing wrong of them, but did God say do not do this unless your culture thinks these things are very cool?  As far as circumcision Paul in Galatians 5:12 must of wrote what he had on Sarcasm Monday! Not even the Jewish practice of circumcisions which identified persons in a communal aspect was left untouched. 

Yielding back, 

William

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Ben Asher
3 hours ago, William said:

some people are superficial [outward display] enough to base their whole identity from not only the place they were born, color of their skin, but sexual orientation.

I agree that if a Christian is basing his or her identity wholly or entirely on the aspects mentioned above it is highly regrettable. On the other hand if a Christian use his or her personal background and or cultural sensitivity (other people's background) in order to better translation and communicate the gospel in order that other may be saved then he or she would be following in Paul's example,(1 Corinthians 9:19-23).

 

4 hours ago, William said:

Isn't a recurring theme throughout the Bible not to take on the ways of the cultures of surrounding heathen nations?

Yes, it is! Okay now I know the following wasn't you but this is also one of the reasons why communities of faith who continue have an ecclesiastical language different from the secular one of their country fascinate me.

 

4 hours ago, William said:

Take for example the very principle of OT law concerning tattoos and markings. Some people today think nothing wrong with them, but did God say do not do this unless your culture thinks these things are very cool? 

This is a good example.

 

4 hours ago, William said:

 

As far as the Scriptural references you made I'd like to take the time to address them one by one and your points later on. I'll come back to them. 

Thank you! I am very interested in what you have to say.

 

Grace and Peace

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E Morales

Israel the chosen place, the Jews, the chosen people that rejected the just one. Those Jews and non Jews that believe are not condemned, those that believe not, are condemned already. Have a nice day, I’ll see you in church.

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Guest Becky

Having read and re-read this exchange between @Ben Asher and @William i am impressed. Though my simple mind may be easy to impress. 🙂 The thoughtfulness of the points and counter points is informative to the reader.  So much more then today's standard of one liners.  Thanks guys 

 

image.png.97b615f2315eaa44a8221b0150ae36b4.png

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Guest William
17 hours ago, Ben Asher said:

Does Christianity erase one's ethnicity? After all I see that there are individuals who consider themselves to be Korean Christians, Japanese Christians, Chinese Christians, Black Christians, Anglo Christians, mixed race/ethic Christians like myself, and so on.

After church today I had a little discussion about this thread with my Pastor. I informed him of our discussion and I asked him specifically whether the church is anti-cultural? I mean often times here in America we view culture as rather worldly. The discussion about Jewish culture also came into focus and I asked further what about Jewish culture? Is there a place in the church for such? What about the Indian culture where Hinduism is so ingrained in the life of citizens? In short my Pastor seemingly took interest in our subject and relayed that many of church missionaries debated this very thing, that is, how much of culture needs be stripped away or what amount may remain? Especially in the example of evangelizing in India. I think his immediate response was the best. He said the church should not be transformed by culture but the individual and individual's culture should be transformed by Scripture. 

 

To note, he thoroughly understood the implications of a person's identity being defined by his native culture. My thoughts are as you suggested Ben we have hyphenated Christianity which seems to be a self-imposed segregation which is not solely based on language barriers. For example, my own mother prefers to attend a Korean church even though she is bi-lingual. It is not only the language she prefers but the culture. I personally think this is counter-productive to the idea of radical unity of the church. 

 

Your thoughts @Ben Asher?

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Guest Becky

Although i believe we Christians are kinda always growing in Him . A small but i believe mighty change of verbiage .

Christians of  Korean ethnicity culture 

Christians of Japanese ethnicity culture

Christians of mixed race and or ethnicity. Etc

First we are Christians we have One Father We are of His blood .

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Guest William
37 minutes ago, Becky said:

Although i believe we Christians are kinda always growing in Him . A small but i believe mighty change of verbiage .

Christians of  Korean ethnicity culture 

Christians of Japanese ethnicity culture

Christians of mixed race and or ethnicity. Etc

First we are Christians we have One Father We are of His blood .

To note I deliberately changed ethnicity for culture because I believe ethnicity can be defined as a race which is an altogether wrong way to identify anyone in the church. Ethnicity and culture though may go hand and hand. For example, in America out of the black community came the hip-hop culture and I see many many whites absorbed in that particular culture. If we address the issues of the day concerning negative aspects of the hip-hop culture would it be proper to address "black hyphenated Christians" or the hip-hop culture itself? 

 

The focus on Jewish culture in the church I think is explicitly addressed in Scripture. I mean what about Korean-culture concerning foods and festivities? On the surface this seems harmless. But I'm only reminding those that such a harmless act over what we eat and festivities was a major point of contention and resulted in convening a council to address these issues. Now, one could argue that Jewish culture is based on Scripture, my response is that it is based on incomplete Scripture and if such "cultural" practices (foods and festivities) are being emphasized to the degree of defining one's spirituality then the same problems existing within the early church will become an equal issue today. Is the Jewish culture today transformed by the church? If so, how much? As an example, American culture has shifted from and away our Christian faith over time. In some denominations the church is being transformed according to the culture. 

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Ben Asher
17 hours ago, William said:

Your thoughts @Ben Asher?

 

Sure. I am a little busy but here briefly are some of my initial thoughts:

 

When the Scriptures, and Christianity were imported into Europe were they not contextualized to reach an audience with a culture very different from those back in the 1st-century middle east?  Perhaps Europeans and Americans imagine that their 'world views', paradigms, theology, theological jargon, style of worship service, hymns, mode of singing, translations of the Bible and liturgical language are identical with those used in New Testament times?

 

I believe that is pretty clear that there are European-American Church styles and Anglo-American Church styles even if people do not acknowledge it and label it as so. Now, how many American/European Christian rise-up and claim it is wrong to worship in a European-American way? I believe that they usually do not because some degree both syncretism and obscurantism have historically occurred in the western Church and continue to this day. So, for me, for a western Christian to say that cross-communication and contextualization are wrong for people from other societies, it seems highly hypocritical at worse, and at the least, it seems naive.

 

Here is an excerpt I think relates'

Quote

In the Jerusalem conference, Peter recounted what God had done through him in bringing Gentiles to repentance, and argued that God had made no distinction between Jew and Gentile. Both were saved by grace, not by law (Acts 15:7 – 11). Barnabas and Paul attested to the miraculous signs and wonders that God had performed among the Gentiles through their ministry (v. 12). ...Finally, James quoted Amos, who had prophesied that “David’s fallen shelter” would be restored and that both the remnant and “nations that bear [God’s] name” would be included (Amos 9:11 – 12). All of the Christian leaders accepted James’s conclusion: “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God” (Acts 15:19). The council then decided that people from another culture should not be compelled to conform to the patterns of the sending culture. Nevertheless, in order to allow Jews and Gentiles to have fellowship within one body, the Gentile Christians were asked to “abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood” (Acts 15:20).

Rheenen, Gailyn Van. Missions (p. 38). Zondervan Academic. Kindle Edition.

 

Galatians 3:28 I find to be highly pertinent to this argument for very few Christians understand this verse as claiming that differences between the roles of men and women have been abolished! For Paul later makes clear that he believes that even in the Church there are still differences between Christian males and Christian females see:1 Corinthians 14:33-35. and 1 Timothy 2: 9-15. Now, if one accepts Paul's word there are still differences in the roles between males and female, how then can one use Galatians 3:28 to claim that there are to be no Jews in the Church? Or that Jews and Greek(i.e. Gentiles/the nations) are now exactly the same? As, stated earlier I believe Galatians 3:28 simply means that all Christians from whatever background are saved the save way, by grace. 

 

i do not believe that grace means that now all Christians must all eat exactly the same foods, use exactly the same languages, same translations of the Bible, dress exactly the same ways, worship in exactly the same styles. If, however that is the case then this sounds far more like legalism to me.

 

Grace and Peace

....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

POST SCRIPT:  Below you will find links offering  explanations and opinions of what Contextualization. The links do not necessarily reflect my opinion on the issue however I do believe it is good to get various Christian opinions on an issue:

 

 

https://www.gotquestions.org/contextualization.html

 

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/to-contextualize-or-not-to-contextualize-that-is-not-the-question/

 

http://acti-singapore.org/docs/AsianMission2007y09m.pdf

 

https://spu.edu/temp/denuol/context.htm

 

https://edstetzer.com/2017/04/the-danger-and-necessity-of-contextualization/

 

https://www.christianitytoday.com/edstetzer/2014/october/what-is-contextualization.html

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ben Asher

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Ben Asher
17 hours ago, William said:

The focus on Jewish culture in the church I think is explicitly addressed in Scripture.

I agree with you that it is explicitly addressed in Scripture, however we probably will not agree on what is that Scripture says.

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Ben Asher

Here is an example of part of why I think contextualization is important:

 

Before, I became a Christian a well meaning brother in Christ came to me and quoted Matthew 1:21 as support of Jesus being the Christ (sic Messiah?Moshiach). At, the time that was confusing and did not make any sense as I knew of no word in the classical Hebrew/Aramaic with the mean 'to save' that sounded anything like the name 'Jesus' nor in English for that matter. The only word I knew that did sound or look similar to Jesus was Zeus. So, began to think Jesus was some how related to Zeus. Now, had the well meaning brother in Christ taken the time to explain that the NT was written the 1st century in the middle east and that name Jesus was actually an English transliteration of a Koine Greek transliteration of the name Yeshua/Yehoshua the brother would have avoided unknowingly miss-communicating the message of the Gospel. Of, course some may argue he present the Gospel message straight and clearly and I rejected it.

 

Grace and Peace

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Ben Asher

Another Example of the importance of cross cultural communication or the need for contextualization:

 

In Japan there was never at anytime a national push toward monotheism so the concept of polytheism for many remains ingrained whenever one talks about Kami/gods in Japanese language. If Christian teachers or Missionaries are not careful to empathize that the triune God is still one God, then they may not realize what what their potential disciple may actually be hearing is something more on the lines of Tritheism. Because of the historical influence of Shintoism in Japan concept of Tritheism would seem like common sense rather than an ideology to be rejected. (The Japanese version of Buddhism also often accepts a type of Pantheism.) I have met some 'Christians' were who actually conceive of the trinity as being a family or a team of three gods. Once, at a Bible study I attended this question was asked, "Where can we find Jesus in the OT?"  a  number of participants voiced the opinion that we can't because "Jesus was born of God during the NT times". One, individual asked does this mean that "Jesus is not God"? and received this reply, "No, Jesus is God, and Jesus' father is God, Jesus is simply a younger God, God's son".

 

I hope to have illustrate that communicating the timeless unchangeable Gospel is not as easy as one might think. In-spite the fact that word of God does not change you probably still appreciate that someone took the time to translated(and in many case interpret) the word of God so that you could hear it.

 

 

Grace and Peace

 

 

Edited by Ben Asher
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Solas

I found this thread revealing in that although 6 entities we're named in the poll about 90 percent of the thread concentrated on the Jews.

How about ’which is the best source of theology ?

ans. The Bible...which was given to us through the Jews.

Edited by Solas

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Guest Becky

 Christian theology includes Jesus , The Jewish religion antichrist. 

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Guest William
1 hour ago, Solas said:

I found this thread revealing in that although 6 entities we're named in the poll about 90 percent of the thread concentrated on the Jews.

How about ’which is the best source of theology ?

ans. The Bible...which was given to us through the Jews.

Catholics believe we owe in part for our salvation Mary and the saints before us. 

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Solas
4 hours ago, William said:

Catholics believe we owe in part for our salvation Mary and the saints before us. 

I'd rather stick with Scripture than Rome...

 

John 4:22 (KJV) Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Luke 24:47 (KJV) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Romans 9:4-5 (KJV) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

 

The Pope can go smoke that.

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Ben Asher
1 hour ago, Solas said:

John 4:22 (KJV) Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

I concur historically Christianity started off as a branch of Judaism. The whole concept of a Christ (rather a Messiah/Moshiach) is a Jewish theological concept concept or at least is one first found in the Jewish scriptures (the Tanakh). The Messiah Yeshua himself was born of the Jews and not of some anonymous group. The Talmidim (Disiciples) of Jesus/Yeshua were Jewish as well as most of the writers of New Testament literature. Even today there are still groups of Messianic (=Christian) individuals from Jewish heritage and it is pretty clear that they are not anti-Christ/Messiah for they believe in the father YHWH, Yeshua the Messiah, and the Ruach Ha-Qodesh(the Holy spirit).

 

 

Grace and Peace

 

 

 

 

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Guest theophilus
On 10/5/2019 at 11:50 AM, William said:

What cracks me up is in the poll people deny that the state of Israel is not the faithful remnant known as Israel yet they reject those advocates in the second that teach that the state of Israel are God's chosen people.

God promised Abraham that his physical descendants would occupy the land of Israel as a permanent possession.  He promised David that one of his descendants would sit on his throne forever.  One reason Jesus came was to fulfill those promises.  Because the Jews rejected Jesus these promises have not yet been fulfilled. 

 

This is similar to what happened when Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt.  God promised them a land of their own but they were afraid to enter the land and spent 40 years wandering in the wilderness.

 

The failure of the Israelites to enter the land postponed the fulfillment of God's promise but didn't  nullify it.  After 40 years then conquered the land.  Their rejection of Jesus postponed the fulfillment of God's promises to Abraham and David but did not nullify them.  A time is coming when the Jews will acknowledge Jesus as their king and will occupy their land forever.  The existence of the nation of Israel indicates that this time is probably near.

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Guest Becky

Jos 21:43  And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. 
Jos 21:44  And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. 
Jos 21:45  There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass. 

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