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Solas

Elect/Predestination as revealed in the OT.

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Solas

Looking at the AV I see the word  'elect' occurs only four times in the OT and all are in Isaiah.(16 times in the NT)

I also find no instance of any form of predest* such as predestine or predestinate etc in the OT. (4 times in the NT)

Forek* e.g. foreknow/foreknowledge 0 times in OT. (4 times in NT).

 

Why do you suppose this aspect of God's revelation was withheld from the OT saints?

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Faber

 I think that although certain specific words are not used the concept is there. The Lord chooses the believer to draw near unto Him (Psalm 65:4). In terms of unbelievers, it is was of the Lord to harden their hearts (Joshua 11:20). Apart from the goodness of God all of our righteousness is like filthy rags - they are putrid in His sight (Isaiah 64:6). God's true believers are preserved forever (Psalm 37:28).

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Guest William
9 hours ago, Solas said:

Looking at the AV I see the word  'elect' occurs only four times in the OT and all are in Isaiah.(16 times in the NT)

I also find no instance of any form of predest* such as predestine or predestinate etc in the OT. (4 times in the NT)

Forek* e.g. foreknow/foreknowledge 0 times in OT. (4 times in NT).

 

Why do you suppose this aspect of God's revelation was withheld from the OT saints?

It wasn't withheld from OT saints but only eludes NT saints that use a key word search rather than context 😉. In all seriousness, though Predestination/Election is not so much an exclusive Reformed theology [as if we have our own verses] as Scriptural always keep in mind that Reformed are "Systematic" therefore imposing the entire Scriptures [from cover to cover]. I take it that you already knew this as your basis for posting this wonderful thread in the Systematic sub-forum. 

 

The OT doctrine of predestination is most vivid in God's choice of Israel to be a light to those around them (Isaiah 42:6; 49:6). Moses, speaking of Israel, says of them:

 

For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the LORD set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but it is because the LORD loves you and is keeping the oath that he swore to your fathers, that the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Deuteronomy 7:6-8

 

It is important to note that God chose them to be a "treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth," not because they "were more in number than any other people" but because the LORD loved them and is keeping the oath that he swore to his fathers. Also, from the context, it is clear that Israel was involved in God's plan, but so was Egypt. God hardened Pharoah's heart so that he would refuse to let them go (Exodus 3:19; 7:13; 14:13). Thus, from the beginning of history, the predestined plan of God is evident in the redemption of his people.

 

The OT writers viewed history as occurring in God's sovereign and predestined plan. The entire idea of prophecy rests upon this truth. If God does not sovereignly control and predestine whatever comes to pass then how he could make statements that are predictive and expect specific results in the future?

 

And on the topic of foreknowledge:

 

The object of God’s foreknowledge in Romans 8:29 is people. God does not say here that he foreknew inclinations, choices, or actions. It is not faith God foreknew; he foreknew people. God did not choose to save based on foreseen human works or decisions; Scripture is clear that we are sovereignly saved by grace through faith (e.g. Romans 9:11-13, Ephesians 2:8-9). Commenting on the parallel passage in Ephesians 1:4, Robert Reymond writes in his A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith, “God chose us before the creation of the world that we should be holy, not because he saw that we would be holy.”

 

What does the word mean? In Scripture, It can mean “prescience” or merely to know in advance (e.g. Acts 26:5, 2 Peter 3:17). The Westminster Larger Catechism Answer 14 uses the English word in that sense: “God executeth his decrees in the works of creation and providence, according to his infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of his own will.”

 

But especially since the object of God’s foreknowledge in Romans 8:29 is people, we must see the connection to the use of the parallel word for knowing in the Old Testament. To know in the Hebrew Scriptures is to know intimately, as Adam did Eve when they conceived their son (Genesis 4:1). The word is frequently used to describe God’s election of his people. Genesis 18:19 says of Abraham, “For I have chosen [known] him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.” The Lord knew of every child before he or she was born, so he must have something more intimate in mind when in speaking to Jeremiah when he said, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations” (Jeremiah 1:5). Similar uses abound in the Old Testament (c.f. Psalm 1:6, 144:3; Hosea 13:4-5, Amos 3:2).

 

The theme of God’s intimate, loving knowledge of his people carries into the New Testament, “But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: ‘The Lord knows those who are his,’ and, ‘Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity’” (2 Timothy 2:19, c.f. 1 Corinthians 8:3). Certainly, the Lord knows every person on earth from a standpoint of bare knowledge, so the text is clearly speaking of something more personal in these cases.

 

https://www.christforums.com/forums/topic/3251-what-does-“foreknew”-mean-in-romans-829/

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Solas

I'm not questioning God's  sovereignty, election etc.,but there seems to be more of an emphasis on nations  over the individual and the concepts are ensconced in types and shadows rather  than coming right out and spelling it clearly as A-B-C as He does in the NT.

 

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Hebrews 1:1-2 (KJV)

 

 

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Guest William
12 hours ago, Solas said:

I'm not questioning God's  sovereignty, election etc.,but there seems to be more of an emphasis on nations  over the individual and the concepts are ensconced in types and shadows rather  than coming right out and spelling it clearly as A-B-C as He does in the NT.

 

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Hebrews 1:1-2 (KJV)

 

 

If I understand you correctly....

 

No doubt solidarity was emphasized in covenantal and familial relationships. In my opinion it is the western mindset that expresses and emphasizes individuality. 

 

Instead of emphasizing God's personal affection towards His people modern theology/evangelism points to and praises individual testimony which merits and credits worldly wisdom rather than God. Rather than pointing to a doctrine such as election and predestination glory is directed to man.

 

Imagine if scripture pointed to the wise decision making of the prodigal as an emphasis and praised him for coming to his senses. I think then we'd have a basis for American evangelism.

 

The whole purpose of the doctrine of your thread [Predestination/Election] is to convey God's affection towards His people long before the prodigal was aware of God's goodness. Such doctrine ought bend our knees and compel us to profess Soli Deo Gloria. 

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FalconMan
5 hours ago, William said:

If I understand you correctly....

 

No doubt solidarity was emphasized in covenantal and familial relationships. In my opinion it is the western mindset that expresses and emphasizes individuality. 

 

Instead of emphasizing God's personal affection towards His people modern theology points to and praises individual testimony which merits and credits individual worldly wisdom rather than God. Rather than pointing to a doctrine such as election and predestination glory is directed to man.

 

Imagine if scripture pointed to the wise decision making of the prodigal as an emphasis and praised him for coming to his senses. I think then we'd have a basis for American evangelism.

 

The whole purpose of the doctrine of your thread is to convey God's affection towards His people long before the prodigal was aware of God's goodness. Such doctrine ought bend our knees and compel us to profess soli deo gloria 

Your comments are an inspiration to me.  Men are not the answer.

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Solas
17 hours ago, William said:

No doubt solidarity was emphasized in covenantal and familial relationships. In my opinion it is the western mindset that expresses and emphasizes individuality. 

 

Perhaps because in the NT it is revealed that Judgment will primarily involve the individual.

 

17 hours ago, William said:

Instead of emphasizing God's personal affection towards His people modern theology/evangelism points to and praises individual testimony which merits and credits worldly wisdom rather than God. Rather than pointing to a doctrine such as election and predestination glory is directed to man.

 

Yes the natural mind would 'naturally' gravitate towards a Pelagian/Arminian view where man is exalted.

 

17 hours ago, William said:

Imagine if scripture pointed to the wise decision making of the prodigal as an emphasis and praised him for coming to his senses. I think then we'd have a basis for American evangelism.

You mean the likes of...

Little Jack Horner
Sat in the corner,
Eating his Christmas pie;
He put in his thumb,
And pulled out a plum,
And said, "What a good boy am I!
"?

 Probably a byproduct of 18th Century Pietism. LOL

 

17 hours ago, William said:

The whole purpose of the doctrine of your thread [Predestination/Election] is to convey God's affection towards His people long before the prodigal was aware of God's goodness. Such doctrine ought bend our knees and compel us to profess Soli Deo Gloria. 

Also to show that God did not explicitly reveal those concepts but seemed to give  a peek through types and shadows found in the OT.

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Matthew A.Duvall
On ‎10‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 11:14 PM, Solas said:

Looking at the AV I see the word  'elect' occurs only four times in the OT and all are in Isaiah.(16 times in the NT)

I also find no instance of any form of predest* such as predestine or predestinate etc in the OT. (4 times in the NT)

Forek* e.g. foreknow/foreknowledge 0 times in OT. (4 times in NT).

 

Why do you suppose this aspect of God's revelation was withheld from the OT saints?

God says ;" Yet I have reserved  seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees  have not bowed to Baal ,and every mouth that has not kissed him." 

!st.Kings 19:18    

Edited by Matthew A.Duvall

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