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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
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almostgreta

A Muslim on the Gospel

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Meir-Simchah
Jews -- and especially Israeli Jews -- I'm speaking as one of them -- also deal with similar peculiarities in Muslim interpretation. I'm going to try to put this as respectfully as possible -- even though I think their mode of interpretation is indicative of what has made Muslim society, for the most part, tragically backward. The mode of interpretation is essentially, you might say, colonialist. They see the text as their own, and their to mine for whatever their purposes happen to be. To the extent that I can tell, when Muslims say that they accept the OT and NT, they mean that they accept *some* of the basic ideas. E.g., they accept that Abraham bound his son, but they claim that the son he bound was Yishmael. There are lots of things like that. They bend things to make themselves the perfect servants of Allah. Many Muslims, it seems to me, presume that what is worth accepting is incorporated (in one way or another) into the Qur'an.

Yes. Excellent. Ben covered the essentials there in the first segment.

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Meir-Simchah
Meir-Simchah

 

I'll be glad to -- your honesty is appreciated and no, you don't sound blasphemous -- you simply want to understand. I'd like to ask you a question -- What are the Jewish criteria for being Messiah?

Yes. Excellent. Ben covered the essentials there in the first segment.

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Meir-Simchah
Meir-Simchah

 

I'll be glad to -- your honesty is appreciated and no, you don't sound blasphemous -- you simply want to understand. I'd like to ask you a question -- What are the Jewish criteria for being Messiah?

I guess they see the Messiah as a lion and not a lamb and later as a lion (analogy)

 

I can't think of any particular description of the messiah as a lion; however, his tribe, Judah, the tribe from which the king must come, the tribe of David and his line, is repeatedly likened to a lion.

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Meir-Simchah
Meir-Simchah

 

I'll be glad to -- your honesty is appreciated and no, you don't sound blasphemous -- you simply want to understand. I'd like to ask you a question -- What are the Jewish criteria for being Messiah?

Just an etymological note (etymonline.com): "messiah (n.) c. 1300, Messias, from Late Latin Messias, from Greek Messias, from Aramaic (Semitic) meshiha and Hebrew mashiah "the anointed" (of the Lord), from mashah "anoint." This is the word rendered in Septuagint as Greek Khristos [hence the word Christ]."

 

So why are we talking about anointing? Because some who assumed a high office were anointed with special oil. Among them were the king and the kohen gadol (usually translated, but not very well, as 'high priest'). The only instances in the Torah (Genesis-Deut) where I recall offhand a mention of the mashuach, the anointed, don't even refer to the king, but rather to the kohen gadol. When we talk about the king, usually we just talk about the king.

 

In a sense, mashiach does not have in our tradition the kind of centrality which he has in your religion. (There is even a debate -- one which is ongoing and has contemporary ramifications -- about whether the mitzvot which pertain to the king prescribe having a king or whether they are simply the way to do it if, it works out, we insist on having or badly need a king. Frankly, I am a little confused by the authorities who argue that the king isn't necessary.) That said, we pray for the restoration of the kingship of David's line three times every day, at least. This restoration will allow my people and *all* peoples to flourish in unprecedented ways, to become, you might say, fully human realizing the full potential of humanity. This is not mystical or mysterious. It's down to earth and makes perfect sense with the Hebrew scriptures. We are talking about a human king. He has certain jobs to do. His power is limited in systematic ways. Etc.

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Meir-Simchah
Meir-Simchah

 

I'll be glad to -- your honesty is appreciated and no, you don't sound blasphemous -- you simply want to understand. I'd like to ask you a question -- What are the Jewish criteria for being Messiah?

To give you some idea about how we (Jews) think about this stuff, you might check out my podcast, Holy Madness - The Show. We at holymadness.podbean.com, or via iTunes or whatever podcast app you may use (just search "Holy Madness").

 

In episode 7, we talk about exile and redemption, and the purpose of exile. Interestingly, I don't think we mention having a king once. It really is incidental, or, no, rather, the "crowning" achievement. We focused on the Persian exile, because we were thinking on the one hand about the Iran protests and on the other about Purim which is coming soon.

 

In episode 4, the Christmas-Chanukah episode, we address differences between those holidays and begin to talk about the purpose of a human life.

 

In episode 5, we talk about Jerusalem, and this starts to give a sense of why the land of Israel and Jerusalem are so important to us. We mention the Temple many times, but don't really go into it. The focus is more like the focus of the Book of Lamentations. Except we aren't sad.

 

In episode 6, we talk about prayer. That's probably less relevant here. But you may find we have a very different orientation in some ways.

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Fastfredy0
I can't think of any particular description of the messiah as a lion

 

Well, that (lion and lamb) is the analogy that Christians use. The New Testament say Jesus is (Revelation 5:5) "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, . The New Testament describes him as a lamb. I think Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have a Messiah of a sort. My quicky take is:

 

Islam: Eventually, Jesus will slay the Antichrist, and then everyone who is one of the Book (of course, Jesus is a Muslim)

Christianity (well a portion of it) ... Jesus will return, massive and bloody war, set up a theocracy and rule world and gentiles from Jerusalem for 1,000 yrs, then final battle and judgement, new heavens and earth (many think verses alluding to this are allegorical)

Judaism: This is your area. But I believe Shapiro says, a Jew will set up a political system in a physical world in which the gathered Jews will rule (somewhat similar to some of Christianity in these respects.)

 

So many allegories, symbolism, etc. that each person becomes authority over the scripture instead of from the scripture. It's is quite messy. Christians argue amongst themselves about it, some think the USA is alluded to in the end times. (Coming originally from Canada, I think Canada will be a major player .... smile j/k)

 

Have a good day :RpS_biggrin:

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Sue D.
Meir-Simchah

 

I'll be glad to -- your honesty is appreciated and no, you don't sound blasphemous -- you simply want to understand. I'd like to ask you a question -- What are the Jewish criteria for being Messiah?

Re: part of #8.4 "We are talking about a human king." Jesus Christ Will be coming back for the 2nd time as a King. Zechariah 14:4 "In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives which faces Jerusalem on the east And the Mt of Olives shall be split in tow, from east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south. ........"

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Meir-Simchah
I can't think of any particular description of the messiah as a lion

 

Well, that (lion and lamb) is the analogy that Christians use. The New Testament say Jesus is (Revelation 5:5) "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, . The New Testament describes him as a lamb. I think Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have a Messiah of a sort. My quicky take is:

 

Islam: Eventually, Jesus will slay the Antichrist, and then everyone who is one of the Book (of course, Jesus is a Muslim)

Christianity (well a portion of it) ... Jesus will return, massive and bloody war, set up a theocracy and rule world and gentiles from Jerusalem for 1,000 yrs, then final battle and judgement, new heavens and earth (many think verses alluding to this are allegorical)

Judaism: This is your area. But I believe Shapiro says, a Jew will set up a political system in a physical world in which the gathered Jews will rule (somewhat similar to some of Christianity in these respects.)

 

So many allegories, symbolism, etc. that each person becomes authority over the scripture instead of from the scripture. It's is quite messy. Christians argue amongst themselves about it, some think the USA is alluded to in the end times. (Coming originally from Canada, I think Canada will be a major player .... smile j/k)

 

Have a good day :RpS_biggrin:

Yeah, it's nice to lay out this comparison. I can only speak for my tradition, of course.

 

Ben's characterization is very good. (There are some groups, very vocal and creative, which do have more eccentric views, most prominently by far, Chabad. These speculative, messianic movements never seem to serve us well. Prof. Gershom Scholem, btw, inaugurated the academic study of them as such.)

 

There is, however, something which grates on me in characterizing our messiah as engaged in "politics." It's a foreign way of conceptualizing these matters. The field of politics is so foreign to Hebraic thought, there is no word for 'politics' in biblical Hebrew. And yet a cursory glance at the Torah shows that from the time of Moses, at the very latest, we have been intensely engaged in organizing and refining our community and its actions. This continues to be the case through, more or less, the entire of the Hebrew Bible. Communal engagement is reflected even in the *poetry* of David, in the psalms, in ways that sound odd to ears accustomed to English poetry. And the Book of Esther where our communal life had disintegrated and you might have seen us turn inward toward individual-centered spiritual systems (as actually happened in the Hellenistic period among the Greeks and those whom they influenced after the breakup of the Athenian regime), instead you see our community reconstituting itself in a new form (again, that's episode 7 of my podcast Holy Madness - The Show, holymadness.podbean.com).

 

I think the crucial distinction, which makes "politics" sound so foreign, is that for Jews there is no secular political sphere. (There may be some comparison or contrast to be made with Matthew 22:21, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's.") Whether we're talking about agriculture, which is of one piece with tzadaka (which is translated, but only very approximately, as "charity"), Shabbat, relations between men and women, economic regulation, appointing a king, or Temple sacrifices, we are everywhere engaged in mitzvot, the imperatives of our God.

 

Which leads me to saying something which I should have said much earlier on. While our conception of messiah is entirely human and in essence about being our king or kohen gadol, kingship for us is ultimately about becoming a world which is flourishes under the kingship of God.

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Sue D.

Meir -- As I was alluding to in post 8.6 -- In the book of Revelation the last couple of chapters is when God Does set up His eternal kingdom here on earth -- The New Jerusalem is described -- the earth and heaven that we know Now will be destroyed during that final battle -- God brings down from heaven the New Jerusalem -- He sets up His tabernacle Here to be with His people personally, Himself. For all eternity.

 

But before That -- as mentioned previously in Zechariah 14 -- talks about the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ -- He literally does come to this earth as an adult to be our leader for 1,000 yrs. He will be leading from Jerusalem.

 

Jesus Christ is Not mentioned in the Old Testament -- however, the book of Isaiah 7:14 says "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel." Now look at Matthew 1 : 18 -, 21, 23 in particular "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel " which is translated "God with us."

 

 

Yes, you've made a very good point -- Matthew 22;21 -- Render to Ceasar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God'."

 

 

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Meir-Simchah
Meir -- As I was alluding to in post 8.6 -- In the book of Revelation the last couple of chapters is when God Does set up His eternal kingdom here on earth -- The New Jerusalem is described -- the earth and heaven that we know Now will be destroyed during that final battle -- God brings down from heaven the New Jerusalem -- He sets up His tabernacle Here to be with His people personally, Himself. For all eternity.

 

But before That -- as mentioned previously in Zechariah 14 -- talks about the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ -- He literally does come to this earth as an adult to be our leader for 1,000 yrs. He will be leading from Jerusalem.

 

Jesus Christ is Not mentioned in the Old Testament -- however, the book of Isaiah 7:14 says "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel." Now look at Matthew 1 : 18 -, 21, 23 in particular "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel " which is translated "God with us."

 

 

Yes, you've made a very good point -- Matthew 22;21 -- Render to Ceasar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God'."

 

Sue, listen, I'm really happy to hear how you think about God, salvation, sin, Jesus, redemption, scripture, interpretation, etc. So I'd love to hear why you think Zechariya was talking about Jesus, why you mistranslate the word na'ara in Isaiah 7:14 to "virgin", and why you find it so compelling that Matthew uses the name Immanuel (I can call Nancy Pelosi "Immanuel" and that doesn't make her the messiah)? Also if hypothetically someone were born from a virgin woman -- God knows how or why -- it would immediately disqualify him from being the messiah; so it seems very odd to hold this up as a good thing; what do you do with that?

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Sue D.

Meir -- maybe I can ask you if you believe that the first -five books of the Bible are really God's Word -- well -- that all the books you'd listed prior to this are God's Word.

 

What do I do with That? Well -- since I Do believe that the Bible Is God's Word -- God's Word is Truth -- The virgin birth of Jesus Christ makes Him both human and divine. And that is one of the hardest concepts to understand. If Mary had become pregnant by a man -- like a Roman like some people like to say she was -- or simply another Jewish man -- her baby would have been just another baby who grew up to be a religious leader of that day - died and that would be That.

 

However -- as the Gospels tell us -- the Holy Spirit came upon her before any man had a chance To 'know her' and her baby -- back to Matthew 1: 21 -- "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." Actually that enables Him TO be the Messiah.

 

The term "Immanual" means God with us. God coming to us in human form -- the Son of God -- the second part of the trinity. And, yes, I know all of this sounds Crazy. But it's True Because John 14:6 tells us that "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father But By Me." And that is Jesus Christ talking. And the fact of his bodily resurrection Proved that he was indeed the Son of God.

 

(I'm ignoring your comment regarding Nancy Pelosi -- makes my skin crawl)

 

I just looked up 'virgin' as used in Isaiah 7:14 -- it tells me to look up # 5959 for the Greek word / translation -- the word 'almah' is used "men. of 2928 'elem' --- 5959 "damsel, maid, Virgin" -- I'm using The New Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible -- both Hebrew and Greek.

 

Isaiah is a beautiful book -- 40:8 for instance -- The grass wither, and flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever" // 41:10 // 45: 5 - 7 , 18 b // chapter 53: 3 , 5 "But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities, The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned, everyone, to his own way ' and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. "

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Fastfredy0
Meir -- As I was alluding to in post 8.6 -- In the book of Revelation the last couple of chapters is when God Does set up His eternal kingdom here on earth -- The New Jerusalem is described -- the earth and heaven that we know Now will be destroyed during that final battle -- God brings down from heaven the New Jerusalem -- He sets up His tabernacle Here to be with His people personally, Himself. For all eternity.

 

But before That -- as mentioned previously in Zechariah 14 -- talks about the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ -- He literally does come to this earth as an adult to be our leader for 1,000 yrs. He will be leading from Jerusalem.

 

Jesus Christ is Not mentioned in the Old Testament -- however, the book of Isaiah 7:14 says "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel." Now look at Matthew 1 : 18 -, 21, 23 in particular "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel " which is translated "God with us."

 

 

Yes, you've made a very good point -- Matthew 22;21 -- Render to Ceasar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God'."

 

Meir-Simchah, you definitely bring a different perspective on things.

 

Re: Isaiah 7:14 the word is translated to virgin in English and you said it does not mean virgin.

I looked the verse up and two English versions Z(NET, NRSV) do not use virgin. The Hebrew translator said: damsel, maid, virgin. Very interesting. I am not scholarly enough to comment further and may have gone too far already (lol), but interesting. Something may be amiss. Maybe the English translators of the Old Testament thought that because the New Testament used the word VIRGIN they thus thought VIRGIN should be used from the possible meanings in Isaiah 7:14

(we are way behold my expertise, I just take what the English translation says as truth and recognize there may be minor issues)

 

Question: Why do you say that the Messiah would be disqualified if born of a virgin?

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Meir-Simchah
Meir -- maybe I can ask you if you believe that the first -five books of the Bible are really God's Word -- well -- that all the books you'd listed prior to this are God's Word.

 

What do I do with That? Well -- since I Do believe that the Bible Is God's Word -- God's Word is Truth -- The virgin birth of Jesus Christ makes Him both human and divine. And that is one of the hardest concepts to understand. If Mary had become pregnant by a man -- like a Roman like some people like to say she was -- or simply another Jewish man -- her baby would have been just another baby who grew up to be a religious leader of that day - died and that would be That.

 

However -- as the Gospels tell us -- the Holy Spirit came upon her before any man had a chance To 'know her' and her baby -- back to Matthew 1: 21 -- "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." Actually that enables Him TO be the Messiah.

 

The term "Immanual" means God with us. God coming to us in human form -- the Son of God -- the second part of the trinity. And, yes, I know all of this sounds Crazy. But it's True Because John 14:6 tells us that "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father But By Me." And that is Jesus Christ talking. And the fact of his bodily resurrection Proved that he was indeed the Son of God.

 

(I'm ignoring your comment regarding Nancy Pelosi -- makes my skin crawl)

 

I just looked up 'virgin' as used in Isaiah 7:14 -- it tells me to look up # 5959 for the Greek word / translation -- the word 'almah' is used "men. of 2928 'elem' --- 5959 "damsel, maid, Virgin" -- I'm using The New Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible -- both Hebrew and Greek.

 

Isaiah is a beautiful book -- 40:8 for instance -- The grass wither, and flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever" // 41:10 // 45: 5 - 7 , 18 b // chapter 53: 3 , 5 "But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities, The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned, everyone, to his own way ' and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. "

To quote John 14:6, or any statement from the NT, that Jesus is messiah is just circular reasoning. I'm ask, why so you think Jesus is the messiah (since he doesn't match any of the criteria)? And you answer, because it says so in the NT. And then I ask, why do you believe the NT? And you answer, because "that is Jesus Christ talking. (Again the argument from Nancy Pelosi applies. "Why do you think Nancy Pelosi is the messiah (since obviously she's totally self-deluded and despicable)?" "Well, because it says so on her website." "Why do you believe her website?" "Because it's the website of Nancy Pelosi the messiah!" The logic is circular.)

 

Yes, correct, the term is 'almah (not, as I said before, na'ara). Neither implies virginity. Both imply youth. 'Almah in at least one case implies alacrity.

 

It seems like the only reason to take something in the Hebrew Bible as implying that Jesus is the messiah, is that you want it validate the claim that Jesus is the messiah. Setting aside all religious elements and legal problems, that's just not a good way to interpret anything.

 

What do you think?

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Meir-Simchah
Meir -- As I was alluding to in post 8.6 -- In the book of Revelation the last couple of chapters is when God Does set up His eternal kingdom here on earth -- The New Jerusalem is described -- the earth and heaven that we know Now will be destroyed during that final battle -- God brings down from heaven the New Jerusalem -- He sets up His tabernacle Here to be with His people personally, Himself. For all eternity.

 

But before That -- as mentioned previously in Zechariah 14 -- talks about the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ -- He literally does come to this earth as an adult to be our leader for 1,000 yrs. He will be leading from Jerusalem.

 

Jesus Christ is Not mentioned in the Old Testament -- however, the book of Isaiah 7:14 says "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel." Now look at Matthew 1 : 18 -, 21, 23 in particular "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel " which is translated "God with us."

 

 

Yes, you've made a very good point -- Matthew 22;21 -- Render to Ceasar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God'."

 

Question: Why do you say that the Messiah would be disqualified if born of a virgin?

 

Well, the messiah has to be a patrilineal descendent of King David. No father from that line = no messiah.

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Fastfredy0
Meir -- maybe I can ask you if you believe that the first -five books of the Bible are really God's Word -- well -- that all the books you'd listed prior to this are God's Word.

 

What do I do with That? Well -- since I Do believe that the Bible Is God's Word -- God's Word is Truth -- The virgin birth of Jesus Christ makes Him both human and divine. And that is one of the hardest concepts to understand. If Mary had become pregnant by a man -- like a Roman like some people like to say she was -- or simply another Jewish man -- her baby would have been just another baby who grew up to be a religious leader of that day - died and that would be That.

 

However -- as the Gospels tell us -- the Holy Spirit came upon her before any man had a chance To 'know her' and her baby -- back to Matthew 1: 21 -- "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." Actually that enables Him TO be the Messiah.

 

The term "Immanual" means God with us. God coming to us in human form -- the Son of God -- the second part of the trinity. And, yes, I know all of this sounds Crazy. But it's True Because John 14:6 tells us that "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father But By Me." And that is Jesus Christ talking. And the fact of his bodily resurrection Proved that he was indeed the Son of God.

 

(I'm ignoring your comment regarding Nancy Pelosi -- makes my skin crawl)

 

I just looked up 'virgin' as used in Isaiah 7:14 -- it tells me to look up # 5959 for the Greek word / translation -- the word 'almah' is used "men. of 2928 'elem' --- 5959 "damsel, maid, Virgin" -- I'm using The New Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible -- both Hebrew and Greek.

 

Isaiah is a beautiful book -- 40:8 for instance -- The grass wither, and flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever" // 41:10 // 45: 5 - 7 , 18 b // chapter 53: 3 , 5 "But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities, The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned, everyone, to his own way ' and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. "

What do you think?

I think you make good points.

 

What I state next may seem a deflection, but I believe Christianity is based on faith and not always logical. I cite as evidence:

 

1 Corinthians 2:14 The unbeliever does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. And he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. THIS SAYS TO ME THAT YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND OUR VIEWPOINT UNLESS YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN FOR ONLY A CHRISTIAN HAS GOD'S SPIRIT TO DISCERN HIS WORD.

 

1 Corinthians 1: 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks search for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, THUS, THE NEW TESTAMENT DESCRIBES CHRIST CRUCIFIED (the focus of Christianity) AS FOOLISHNESS. The message of the Cross does not appear to make sense. How could anyone believe in and submit to One who was apparently not smart enough to save Himself from suffering execution as a criminal when He was not one? Furthermore how could anyone look to such an One as a teacher of wisdom?

 

Thus, if God says in the New Testament says 1 + 1 = 3 Christians believe it and could never explain it to an unbeliever and often can't explain some aspects to ourselves. That being said, often what God says in the New Testament is 1 + 1 = 2

 

Hopefully, that was coherently explained what is sometimes incoherent. :)

(My opinion)

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Sue D.
Meir -- maybe I can ask you if you believe that the first -five books of the Bible are really God's Word -- well -- that all the books you'd listed prior to this are God's Word.

 

What do I do with That? Well -- since I Do believe that the Bible Is God's Word -- God's Word is Truth -- The virgin birth of Jesus Christ makes Him both human and divine. And that is one of the hardest concepts to understand. If Mary had become pregnant by a man -- like a Roman like some people like to say she was -- or simply another Jewish man -- her baby would have been just another baby who grew up to be a religious leader of that day - died and that would be That.

 

However -- as the Gospels tell us -- the Holy Spirit came upon her before any man had a chance To 'know her' and her baby -- back to Matthew 1: 21 -- "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." Actually that enables Him TO be the Messiah.

 

The term "Immanual" means God with us. God coming to us in human form -- the Son of God -- the second part of the trinity. And, yes, I know all of this sounds Crazy. But it's True Because John 14:6 tells us that "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father But By Me." And that is Jesus Christ talking. And the fact of his bodily resurrection Proved that he was indeed the Son of God.

 

(I'm ignoring your comment regarding Nancy Pelosi -- makes my skin crawl)

 

I just looked up 'virgin' as used in Isaiah 7:14 -- it tells me to look up # 5959 for the Greek word / translation -- the word 'almah' is used "men. of 2928 'elem' --- 5959 "damsel, maid, Virgin" -- I'm using The New Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible -- both Hebrew and Greek.

 

Isaiah is a beautiful book -- 40:8 for instance -- The grass wither, and flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever" // 41:10 // 45: 5 - 7 , 18 b // chapter 53: 3 , 5 "But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities, The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned, everyone, to his own way ' and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. "

Meir -- first of all -- please leave Nancy Pelosi out of this conversation. What criteria are you talking about? The Old Testament is history of how this world came into being and beginning of the Jewish people. The tribe of Judah. The Old Testament is fulfilled in the New Testament. All through the Old Testament -- the High Priests are required to make yearly sacrifices for the sins of the people. A perfect lamb -- no spots or blemishes. The Son of God / Jesus Christ was born to become the final Perfect Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Yes, Jesus Christ was put on the cross along with the two thieves -- it was the cruelest form of death known to the Romans. Some people believed He was really the Son of God -- others didn't -- just likeToday. The point is that He Gave His life for us / our sins. Jesus Christ Became the Perfect Lamb of God --He died in our place for our sins -- that's found in 1 Corinthians 15: 1-5 or so. That's what Isaiah 53 is talking about.

 

Another term for 'circular reasoning' is internal evidence.

 

It's not a matter of my 'thinking' but my 'Knowing" and there's a difference.

 

A virgin is a virgin -- almost unknown these days -- but women / teens do actually start out life as Virgins. Not having had sex with anyone. Virginity Used to be a virtue. Now days it's sort of made fun of.

 

You'd said you want to learn more about Christianity -- about sin and this thing called salvation. We've been explaining it to you. Maybe this approach - - salvation implies being saved from something. What is a person being saved From? spending eternity in hell and being saved TO eternal life with God -- the New Jerusalem. A persons' sinfulness is sending the person to hell. Because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The holiness of God. The verse that says 'be ye holy for I am holy' says God Almighty. God gave us the Ten Commandments in Exodus --all those 'thou shalt not's' -- told us what sin is. And we're also told how to counteract sin. But the gift of God is eternal Life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

Each person is responsible to accept or reject the salvation that is offered. It doesn't depend on a person's cultural setting or what church they do or don't attend. For God so loved the world, that He gave......His only begotten Son , that who so ever believeth in Him will not perish but have everlasting life."

 

The Jewish people wanted a King to come and lead them -- then -- not have a baby Jesus person be born and have to wait a long time for King Jesus to arrive. For a king to come back then would have been a temporary fix. A Savior for eternity is God's Bigger plan.

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Guest theophilus
Well, the messiah has to be a patrilineal descendent of King David. No father from that line = no messiah.

Joseph, the husband of Mary, was a descendant of King David and the rightful heir to the throne. He couldn't actually occupy the throne because of a curse God had placed on one of lhis ancestors, Jechoniah. The only way Jesus could inherit the kingship was to be born of a virgin who was legally the wife of Joseph. See my post here: https://www.christforums.org/forum/christian-community/general-faith/60718-king-joseph

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Sue D.
Well, the messiah has to be a patrilineal descendent of King David. No father from that line = no messiah.

Joseph, the husband of Mary, was a descendant of King David and the rightful heir to the throne. He couldn't actually occupy the throne because of a curse God had placed on one of lhis ancestors, Jechoniah. The only way Jesus could inherit the kingship was to be born of a virgin who was legally the wife of Joseph. See my post here: https://www.christforums.org/forum/christian-community/general-faith/60718-king-joseph

Only thing Is is that Jesus never was King, while on this earth. His purpose while on earth was to show people to His Father in Heaven. The only time He will be here as ruler will be at His 2nd coming during the 1,000 reign.

 

btw -- Meir -- The Pharisees in the New Testament were the Jews -- many of them accepted Jesus Christ as Messiah.

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Meir-Simchah
Well, the messiah has to be a patrilineal descendent of King David. No father from that line = no messiah.

Joseph, the husband of Mary, was a descendant of King David and the rightful heir to the throne. He couldn't actually occupy the throne because of a curse God had placed on one of lhis ancestors, Jechoniah. The only way Jesus could inherit the kingship was to be born of a virgin who was legally the wife of Joseph. See my post here: https://www.christforums.org/forum/christian-community/general-faith/60718-king-joseph

Joseph, the husband of Mary, was a descendant of King David and the rightful heir to the throne.

 

Fine. But he wasn't Jesus' father. Jesus wasn't a descendant of David. No father from that line = no messiah.

 

(Who cares about the curse? There are other heirs.)

 

Sue, I don't want to take your religion away from you. I'm just pointing out that it is a radical departure from the Hebrew Bible. Many concepts were swapped out for others, or just thrown out almost entirely. Why? How? I assume there are complicated historical processes behind all that, but what really interests me is, Why from a Christian spiritual/theological perspective?

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Meir-Simchah
Meir -- maybe I can ask you if you believe that the first -five books of the Bible are really God's Word -- well -- that all the books you'd listed prior to this are God's Word.

 

What do I do with That? Well -- since I Do believe that the Bible Is God's Word -- God's Word is Truth -- The virgin birth of Jesus Christ makes Him both human and divine. And that is one of the hardest concepts to understand. If Mary had become pregnant by a man -- like a Roman like some people like to say she was -- or simply another Jewish man -- her baby would have been just another baby who grew up to be a religious leader of that day - died and that would be That.

 

However -- as the Gospels tell us -- the Holy Spirit came upon her before any man had a chance To 'know her' and her baby -- back to Matthew 1: 21 -- "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." Actually that enables Him TO be the Messiah.

 

The term "Immanual" means God with us. God coming to us in human form -- the Son of God -- the second part of the trinity. And, yes, I know all of this sounds Crazy. But it's True Because John 14:6 tells us that "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father But By Me." And that is Jesus Christ talking. And the fact of his bodily resurrection Proved that he was indeed the Son of God.

 

(I'm ignoring your comment regarding Nancy Pelosi -- makes my skin crawl)

 

I just looked up 'virgin' as used in Isaiah 7:14 -- it tells me to look up # 5959 for the Greek word / translation -- the word 'almah' is used "men. of 2928 'elem' --- 5959 "damsel, maid, Virgin" -- I'm using The New Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible -- both Hebrew and Greek.

 

Isaiah is a beautiful book -- 40:8 for instance -- The grass wither, and flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever" // 41:10 // 45: 5 - 7 , 18 b // chapter 53: 3 , 5 "But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities, The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned, everyone, to his own way ' and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. "

But the gift of God is eternal Life through Jesus Christ our Lord. // Each person is responsible to accept or reject the salvation that is offered.

 

Sin screws up the world and the person. How does accepting salvation or Jesus address sin?

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Guppy
Fine. But he wasn't Jesus' father. Jesus wasn't a descendant of David. No father from that line = no messiah.

 

(Who cares about the curse? There are other heirs.)

 

Since, you probably don't believe in the virgin birth, how do you make that argument?

 

I don't believe in the virgin birth, but let me use it against you. Its kind of like saying I don't believe in Santa because the tooth fairy told me

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Sue D.
Well, the messiah has to be a patrilineal descendent of King David. No father from that line = no messiah.

Joseph, the husband of Mary, was a descendant of King David and the rightful heir to the throne. He couldn't actually occupy the throne because of a curse God had placed on one of lhis ancestors, Jechoniah. The only way Jesus could inherit the kingship was to be born of a virgin who was legally the wife of Joseph. See my post here: https://www.christforums.org/forum/christian-community/general-faith/60718-king-joseph

Meir--don't worry -- you're Not taking any part of my belief in Christianity away from me. From My perspective You are trying to make Christianity sound like a very unlikely belief. The Jewish religion came through the tribe of Judah -- one of the 12 tribes of Israel. As I've commented on previously -- Many Jews wanted a king to come Then and rule here on earth permanently. But God's big plan was to provide a Messiah / Savior for both Jews And Gentiles. And there are many Jewish people Today, who Do accept Him as their Messiah. And it Also seems at times that you are more interested in promoting Judaism Rather than accepting the truths about Christianity. So -- what Is your real objective.

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Sue D.
Fine. But he wasn't Jesus' father. Jesus wasn't a descendant of David. No father from that line = no messiah.

 

(Who cares about the curse? There are other heirs.)

 

Since, you probably don't believe in the virgin birth, how do you make that argument?

 

I don't believe in the virgin birth, but let me use it against you. Its kind of like saying I don't believe in Santa because the tooth fairy told me

What curse are you referring to?

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Guest theophilus
Fine. But he wasn't Jesus' father. Jesus wasn't a descendant of David. No father from that line = no messiah.

He wasn't the biological father of Jesus but he was legally his father. Mary was also a descendant of David so Jesus was a biological as well as a legal descendant. Did you read the post I linked to?

 

What curse are you referring to?

The curse on Jechoniah, who was an ancestor of Jacob. https://www.christforums.org/forum/christian-community/general-faith/60718-king-joseph

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Fastfredy0
Sin screws up the world and the person. How does accepting salvation or Jesus address sin?

Sin screws up the world and the person. Agreed

 

How does accepting salvation or Jesus address sin?

 

Well, according to Christian belief, this is a matter of justice. The charges are as follows:

  1. Somehow we must pay reparations for sin.
  2. Somehow we have to reconcile the aggrieved parties ( the sinner must be reconciled with God)
  3. Somehow we have to satisfy God’s need to excuse sin

Solution: Well, mans 'sucks' and has no solution the he can implement from his resources. He needs help; he needs Christ. Christ, who is God who has taken on human form, comes to earth and fulfills the requirements of the law. God tells Christ (who is God in human form) that He requires a sacrifice, as spotless lamb so to speak, to be offered up. Christ is the spotless lamb and being God, He is of infinite worth. One drop of His blood is therefore of infinite value to God for it is God himself. Christ (God) dies voluntarily and God the Father raises Him from the death. So, how does this solve the problem of sin ….

 

1. Redemption undertakes the solution of the problem of the sinner and his sin—freedom is secured through the ransom which is Christ’s (God in human form) death/sacrifice.

2. Reconciliation undertakes the solution of the problem of the sinner and his relationship to God, and contemplates the sinner as at enmity with God and Christ as the peace maker and

3. Propitiation undertakes the problem of an offended God and His necessity to be just when he justifies the sinner—Christ as an Offering, a Sacrifice, a Lamb slain who meets every demand of God’s holiness against the offender.

 

Not only this, for this is to take away the negative consequences of sin ... but God does much, much more than forgive sin. He imputes the righteousness of God himself to those who believe in the death and resurrection of Christ. We (believers) are now His adopted children, loved and cherish by God, Brothers of Christ, with citizenship in Heaven while being ambassadors on earth... we are a gift from the Father to the Son, promised new bodies, and on and on ...

 

That’s the Christian perspective as I understand it.

 

So, how does an individual take advantage of this sacrifice?

Christians are divided ... I will generalize and say 3 opinions

 

1) God selects those He will save (the elect) and to each individual so selected the Spirit of God regenerates that person. This process the gives the individual Faith (belief Christ is God and died and is alive), Repentance and Justification. (Aside: this is the opinion I agree with)

2) The individual believes 'Christ is God and died and is alive' by deciding from his own mental resources that it it true where this belief is called FAITH. At this point God's Spirit enters the person and he is justified.

3) Similar to '2', but the person also has to do various things (works) to secure salvation (Roman Catholics, some protestants)

 

That's the gist of it from my perspective.

 

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