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Faber

Is it proper to worship the Holy Spirit?

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JesusIsFaithful
6 minutes ago, Faber said:

 You are a man and yet you are telling me not to lean on man's teaching.

This means I should not lean on your teaching.

Well, you are quoting the man's words based on scriptural references and thus his contrived conclusion and not the actual scripture.

 

I had provided scripture from which I gather the meaning and citing the meaning plainly.  I do notice how you have not really addressed any of them.

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Faber
3 minutes ago, JesusIsFaithful said:

I disagree then.  You cannot have the holy Spirit speaking through him as to what to write and see that as the prophet speaking back to the Holy Spirit.  No way.

Why couldn't the Holy Spirit record their conversation?

Is He incapable of doing so?

 

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Faber
1 minute ago, JesusIsFaithful said:

Well, you are quoting the man's words based on scriptural references and thus his contrived conclusion and not the actual scripture.

 

I had provided scripture from which I gather the meaning and citing the meaning plainly.  I do notice how you have not really addressed any of them.

 I can say the exact same thing back to you in response to what you said about him.

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JesusIsFaithful
7 minutes ago, Faber said:

 I gave several pieces of evidence in the OP and you have not addressed any of them

Then you missed that post on page one of this thread, second post up from the bottom of that page, brother.

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JesusIsFaithful
6 minutes ago, Faber said:

 Blessing the people by referring to Him giving them "peace" is worshiping the Lord.

John refers to the Holy Spirit in reference to the "peace" He gives to those who read what John writes. 

Numbers 6:24 The Lord bless thee, and keep thee: 25 The Lord make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: 26 The Lord lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

 

Nope.  I still see that as scripture talking about the Son of God before His incarnation, brother.  Does the Holy Spirit has a face?  I think not.

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Faber

This is what you have written:

 

Hebrews 4:12-16 cites the Lord Jesus Christ at that throne of grace as the Word of God that searches our hearts and being our only Mediator is the One that knows the hearts of men.  That is plainly written as His job & His glory...

Again, Hebrews 4:12-16 limits the job of knows the hearts as it is He of Whom we have to do to answer to.  That is His credit and His glory.

 

 

 

Again this does not address the evidence I have supplied in the OP which shows that the use of "Lord" in the prayer encompasses the Holy Spirit.

 Here it is again:

C. Acts 1:24-26

(24) And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

(25) That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

(26) And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. (KJV)

Although I believe this prayer is primarily addressed to the Lord Jesus there is ample evidence that the Holy Spirit[*2] is also in view (as well as the Father). To begin with the Holy Spirit fully knows the hearts of all (Romans 8:26-27; 1 Corinthians 2:10).[*3] He was the One that showed Matthias was the new apostle (cf. Acts 1:2). In fact, in Acts 1:20 the Greek word for bishoprick (episkopē) means overseer and according to Acts 20:28 the Holy Spirit is said to be responsible for fulfilling the task of selecting overseers (episkopos). Therefore, the lots were cast by those praying in order to know the selection of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:26) in which Matthias was to take (Acts 1:25; cf. Acts 1:20).

 

[*2] Kenneth Berding (Acts 1:2): Furthermore, although not stated explicitly, can there be any doubt that when believers prayed in Acts 1:24-25 - "Lord, you know everyone's heart, Show us which one of these two you have chosen to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place" - that in Luke's theology, the "showing" was via the Spirit (cf. Acts 1:2, 5, 8, 16; 2:4; 10:19; 11:12, 28; 13:2 etc.)? (Who Searches Hearts and What Does He Know in Romans 8:27?, Journal of Biblical and Pneumatological Research, Volume 5, 2013, page 101)

 

[*3] The "depth" (Greek: bathos) of God's omniscience as described in Romans 11:33 are the very same "depths" (Greek: bathos) that the Holy Spirit fully knows (1 Corinthians 2:10).

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JesusIsFaithful
6 minutes ago, Faber said:

Why couldn't the Holy Spirit record their conversation?

Is He incapable of doing so?

 

Is that not like saying is God so powerful that He can create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift?

 

Let;s go by what has been written rather than inputting what we want the verses to say in between the lines.

 

Surely you have tried to reprove others by the scripture and you ought to know fancy footwork in dancing around the plainness of the scripture.  Can you not appreciate me asking for you to provide the plainness of the scripture in any letter to the churches that teaches worshiping the Holy Ghost with the Father & the Son?

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Faber
2 minutes ago, JesusIsFaithful said:

Numbers 6:24 The Lord bless thee, and keep thee: 25 The Lord make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: 26 The Lord lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

 

Nope.  I still see that as scripture talking about the Son of God before His incarnation, brother.  Does the Holy Spirit has a face?  I think not.

You are missing my point. 

In Numbers 6:24-26 -> Blessing the people by referring to Him giving them "peace" is worshiping the Lord.

In Revelation 1:4 -> John refers to the Holy Spirit in reference to the "peace" He gives to those who read what John writes. 

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Faber
1 minute ago, JesusIsFaithful said:

Is that not like saying is God so powerful that He can create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift?

 

Not at all.

 Why couldn't the Holy Spirit record the conversation that He had with Isaiah communicating with Him?

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Faber
3 hours ago, JesusIsFaithful said:

 

Do we prove and reprove by the scripture or not?  Do we allow private interpretation or do we take Him at the plainness of His words? 

 Concerning Acts 13:2-4

The approach above is simply a ruse to avoid the obvious fact that the Holy Spirit both hears the prayers being offered (thus He is the "Hearer of prayer" cf. Psalm 65:2) and He responds to them. 

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JesusIsFaithful
22 minutes ago, Faber said:

This is what you have written:

 

Hebrews 4:12-16 cites the Lord Jesus Christ at that throne of grace as the Word of God that searches our hearts and being our only Mediator is the One that knows the hearts of men.  That is plainly written as His job & His glory...

Again, Hebrews 4:12-16 limits the job of knows the hearts as it is He of Whom we have to do to answer to.  That is His credit and His glory.

 

 

 

Again this does not address the evidence I have supplied in the OP which shows that the use of "Lord" in the prayer encompasses the Holy Spirit.

 Here it is again:

Again?  Fine.

Quote

C. Acts 1:24-26

(24) And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

 

Still reading that as a testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd and Head of the body of believers  that He leads us through the Holy Spirit within us.  Jesus is the One that actually chooses; not the Holy Spirit.  Jesus does this through the Holy Spirit.  That is what you are overlooking here.  Jesus is the One that searches our hearts.  Jesus is the One we have to answer to.

 

John 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

 

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Quote

(25) That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

(26) And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. (KJV)

 

Jesus chose the 12 and so He will choose the replacement via lots.

Quote

Although I believe this prayer is primarily addressed to the Lord Jesus there is ample evidence that the Holy Spirit[*2] is also in view (as well as the Father). To begin with the Holy Spirit fully knows the hearts of all (Romans 8:26-27; 1 Corinthians 2:10).[*3] He was the One that showed Matthias was the new apostle (cf. Acts 1:2). In fact, in Acts 1:20 the Greek word for bishoprick (episkopē) means overseer and according to Acts 20:28 the Holy Spirit is said to be responsible for fulfilling the task of selecting overseers (episkopos). Therefore, the lots were cast by those praying in order to know the selection of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:26) in which Matthias was to take (Acts 1:25; cf. Acts 1:20).

Scripture would have the Holy Spirit give the credit and the glory to Jesus for all that the Holy Spirit does.  Do address this scripture now.

 

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

Maybe this will help.

 

Where does all the fruits of the Spirit comes from?

 

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:......11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

 

The same goes for the gifts of the Spirit from where the gifts of the Spirit comes from.

 

Quote

 

[*2] Kenneth Berding (Acts 1:2): Furthermore, although not stated explicitly, can there be any doubt that when believers prayed in Acts 1:24-25 - "Lord, you know everyone's heart, Show us which one of these two you have chosen to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place" - that in Luke's theology, the "showing" was via the Spirit (cf. Acts 1:2, 5, 8, 16; 2:4; 10:19; 11:12, 28; 13:2 etc.)? (Who Searches Hearts and What Does He Know in Romans 8:27?, Journal of Biblical and Pneumatological Research, Volume 5, 2013, page 101)

It is written that it is not stated explicitly and so I do not know why you would take that as evidence as such when scripture plainly reproves such notions.  The Holy Spirit operates as the Spirit of Christ.  That is the whole truth.

Quote

 

[*3] The "depth" (Greek: bathos) of God's omniscience as described in Romans 11:33 are the very same "depths" (Greek: bathos) that the Holy Spirit fully knows (1 Corinthians 2:10).

As in the Spirit of Truth fully knows hence the Spirit of Christ fully knows hence what Jesus Christ knows as how the Holy Spirit is representing Jesus Christ as the Spirit of.

Edited by JesusIsFaithful
clarification

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Faber

Try dealing with this evidence:

 

To begin with the Holy Spirit fully knows the hearts of all (1 Corinthians 2:10). He was the One that showed Matthias was the new apostle (cf. Acts 1:2). In fact, in Acts 1:20 the Greek word for bishoprick (episkopē) means overseer and according to Acts 20:28 the Holy Spirit is said to be responsible for fulfilling the task of selecting overseers (episkopos). Therefore, the lots were cast by those praying in order to know the selection of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:26) in which Matthias was to take (Acts 1:25; cf. Acts 1:20).

 

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JesusIsFaithful
14 minutes ago, Faber said:

You are missing my point. 

In Numbers 6:24-26 -> Blessing the people by referring to Him giving them "peace" is worshiping the Lord.

In Revelation 1:4 -> John refers to the Holy Spirit in reference to the "peace" He gives to those who read what John writes. 

You sneeze and I say Bless you.. and somehow that is worshiping the Lord?  I disagree then.  Maybe someday the Lord will help me to see how you can even see those scripture in that way, but it isn't happening now, if it ever will.

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Faber
Just now, JesusIsFaithful said:

You sneeze and I say Bless you.. and somehow that is worshiping the Lord? 

It depends on whom (or what) you have in mind.

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JesusIsFaithful
Just now, Faber said:

Try dealing with this evidence:

 

To begin with the Holy Spirit fully knows the hearts of all (1 Corinthians 2:10). He was the One that showed Matthias was the new apostle (cf. Acts 1:2). In fact, in Acts 1:20 the Greek word for bishoprick (episkopē) means overseer and according to Acts 20:28 the Holy Spirit is said to be responsible for fulfilling the task of selecting overseers (episkopos). Therefore, the lots were cast by those praying in order to know the selection of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:26) in which Matthias was to take (Acts 1:25; cf. Acts 1:20).

 

Who chose the 12?  Jesus.

 

Who would be choosing the replacement?  Jesus.

 

The Holy Spirit is mentioned to show the validity through Whom Jesus is actually choosing the replacement through.

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Faber
Just now, JesusIsFaithful said:

Who chose the 12?  Jesus.

 

Who would be choosing the replacement?  Jesus.

 

The Holy Spirit is mentioned to show the validity through Whom Jesus is actually choosing the replacement through.

1. And the Holy Spirit (cf. Acts 1:2).

2. And the Holy Spirit for it is His job to supply the overseers of the church (Acts 20:28).

 

3. Who knows hearts of all (Acts 1:24)? Jesus (Revelation 2:23) and the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:10).

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1 hour ago, JesusIsFaithful said:

How can we avoid applying scripture as if private interpretation?

 

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

 

It is either about the Holy Spirit or it is not.

 

Strong's Concordance has this as follows for the Greek word pneuma;

 

"from pnew - pneo 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare yuch - psuche 5590."

 

Now since Jesus is giving an answer about how a time will come where believers are not limited to neither the mountains nor Jerusalem, I would say a vital principle or a mental disposition is being given here rather than a testimony about being in the Holy Ghost in Jesus Christ.

This has nothing to do with private interpretation.  The captain "S" is a translation choice.  Simply pointing to English texts does not mean those translations are correct.  A number of translations use the lower case "s" and for good grammatical reasons.

 

1 hour ago, JesusIsFaithful said:

But how can you prove that, brother?  Or better yet, how can you reprove what I have shared for why it is a small "s" in spirit and a small "t" in truth when He was answering that woman's question?

It your burden to support your claim not mine.  The fact is no one can tell from the Greek text if the word ought to be capitalized.  It can't be done.  There is simply no grammatical reason why it must be.  Yours is a theological interpretation not based upon the Greek text but an English translation.

 

Moreover no one can show that someone (or something) is omnipresent merely because a word is capitalized or not.  No Hebrew and\or Greek scholar believes that.


The KJV is rather inconsistent with this text.  They add the indefinite article.  That would be more in keeping with a lower case "s"  (i.e. "God is a spirit.").   The word "spirit" is a qualitative predicate nominative.

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Guest RdrEm
2 hours ago, JesusIsFaithful said:

As opposed to how some worship God OUT of the spirit and apart from the truth when they call for the Holy Spirit to come and fall on them as if He wasn't already in them as promised for coming to & believing in Jesus Christ at the calling of the gospel?

 

Incidentally, does you Bible version has spirit and truth capitalized or not?

 

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.  KJV

 

Doesn't it strike you as odd that although Spirit is capitalized in regarding God's omnipresence in answering the woman's question where to worship God at, and yet when it comes to worshiping Him in spirit and in truth, neither spirit or truth is capitalized? 

 

At any rate, John 4:24 is about the woman's question where to worship God the Father at;  the mountains or Jerusalem, and Jesus referring to His omnipresence is not testifying to God the Father nor Himself as not having an image from which man was created from.

You sure read a lot into that short text. I wonder where that came from?

 

489324026_ScreenShot2018-07-31at19_57_13.thumb.png.cbd115cfd9ce42c1458bff3fd9651699.png

The first Spirit is a capital because it is the first word in the Greek manuscript sentence, for Jn.4:24. The second is lowercase because it is a effectively an adverb describing the method of doing worship. Truth is also lower case for the same reason. The self same word is used though in both places Pneuma, meaning wind or spirit. The main characteristic of 'wind' or 'spirit' is that it cannot be seen. See John 3:8. So it would seem that Jesus is saying above all that God is Spirit, and cannot therefore be seen.

 

 

Edited by RdrEm

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JesusIsFaithful
Just now, Faber said:

1. And the Holy Spirit (cf. Acts 1:2).

 

Acts 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

 

That verse is more about Jesus Christ than the Holy Ghost.  That verse is about Jesus Christ and what He did THROUGH the Holy Ghost as in Jesus did it.

Just now, Faber said:

2. And the Holy Spirit for it is His job to supply the overseers of the church (Acts 20:28).

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

 

The Holy Spirit was crucified and bled for us?  No.  Who did?  Jesus.  So then Jesus has made them overseers of the church through the Holy Spirit in them to feed the church of God and having that Holy Spirit in them is how they are doing this by the authority of the Son.  The same is when Peter speak, it is not really Peter speaking but the Spirit of Christ in them that is speaking the words of Christ to us in edifying others in the knowledge of Him.

Just now, Faber said:

 

3. Who knows hearts of all (Acts 1:24)? Jesus (Revelation 2:23) and the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:10).

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

 

That is still testifying to Jesus Christ as the God that reveals truths unto us through the Holy Spirit in us.  And John 16:13-15 still testify that such revelations given through the Holy Spirit has the Holy Spirit giving credit to that revelation to Jesus Christ.  That is the truth in scripture you are overlooking in the whole operations of the Holy Spirit.

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20 minutes ago, RdrEm said:

You sure read a lot into that short text. I wonder where that came from?

You got that right,  way to much.

 

20 minutes ago, RdrEm said:

The first Spirit is a capital because it is the first word in the Greek manuscript sentence

That is not correct.  Greek manuscripts were written in either all upper case letters (i.e. majuscule) or all lower case letters (i.e. minuscule).

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JesusIsFaithful
9 minutes ago, Origen said:

This has nothing to do with private interpretation.  The captain "S" is a translation choice.  Simply pointing to English texts does not mean those translations are correct.  A number of translations use the lower case "s" and for good grammatical reasons.

And your argument is for...?  Not knowing what God really said?  Then I would have to disagree as being a translation choice.

9 minutes ago, Origen said:

 

It your burden to support your claim not mine.  The fact is no one can tell from the Greek text if the word ought to be capitalized.  It can't be done.  There is simply no grammatical reason why it must be.  Yours is a theological interpretation not based upon the Greek text but an English translation.

Ah... well... let's see now.  If modern Bibles testify with the KJV that Jesus is the Giver of life in John 6:30-35 and that scripture is to testify of Jesus for the seekers in the scripture to come to Him for life in John 5:39-40, then when modern bibles defer from that testimony by capitalizing spirit in 2 Corinthians 3:6 & John 6:63 when they should not have, then I would go with the KJV, because it is not a translation choice, but an error when it decline from the testimony of the Son.

 

Psalm 119:157 Many are my persecutors and mine enemies; yet do I not decline from thy testimonies. 158 I beheld the transgressors, and was grieved; because they kept not thy word.

 

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

 

John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

 

Now according to Jesus words, those who love Him will keep His sayings as those sayings will testify of Him in seeking His glory; therefore any delcine from the testimony of the Son in being the Giver of life by giving that credit also to the Holy Spirit, I will cry foul.  The Holy Spirit in me would too.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Origen said:

 

Moreover no one can show that someone (or something) is omnipresent merely because a word is capitalized or not.  No Hebrew and\or Greek scholar believes that.

In the context of the message you can when Jesus is answering the woman's question as to where to worship God the Father at;  in the mountains or in Jerusalem. 

9 minutes ago, Origen said:


The KJV is rather inconsistent with this text.  They add the indefinite article.  That would be more in keeping with a lower case "s"  (i.e. "God is a spirit.").   The word "spirit" is a qualitative predicate nominative.

Well, "God is a spirit" would be suggestive as grouping God with other spirits.  Since Jesus is talking about the omnipresence of God in not being confined to either location in answering that woman's question, then I agree with the capitalization... as at least 52 Biblical scholars of the day did in unanimously checking each other work in producing the King James Bible to be published.  And yes, so did the 1599 Geneva Bible too as explained in its footnote, albeit they did capitalized Spirit & Truth when they should not have as comparing the King James Bible with the 1599 Geneva Bible at Bible gateway that that link below.

 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 4%3A24&version=KJV;GNV

 

 

 

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JesusIsFaithful
2 minutes ago, Origen said:

You got that right,  way to much.

 

That is not correct.  Greek manuscripts were written in either all upper case letters (i.e. majuscule) or all lower case letters (i.e. minuscule).

Then wisdom is needed from the Lord in understanding His words for the message or answer He is giving us, correct?

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Guest RdrEm
1 minute ago, Origen said:

You got that right,  way to much.

 

That is not correct.  Greek manuscripts were written in either all upper case letters (i.e. majuscule) or all lower case letters (i.e. minuscule).

My point was really that the KJV may have decided to use an upper case S because Pneuma was the first word of the Greek sentence. In English therefore it might have been thought appropriate to start the word 'Spirit' with a capitol S. But you are right, it is probably a very insignificant quirk of Elizabethan English translators.

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1 minute ago, JesusIsFaithful said:

And your argument is for...?  Not knowing what God really said?  Then I would have to disagree as being a translation choice.

I am telling you the facts.  I never said that no one knows what the Greek really says.  My point is that you simply cannot claim it ought to be a capital "S" for grammatical reasons.

 

As I said above, the KJV is rather inconsistent with this text.  They add the indefinite article.  That would be more in keeping with a lower case "s"  (i.e. "God is a spirit.").   The word "spirit" is a qualitative predicate nominative.

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JesusIsFaithful
24 minutes ago, RdrEm said:

You sure read a lot into that short text. I wonder where that came from?

 

489324026_ScreenShot2018-07-31at19_57_13.thumb.png.cbd115cfd9ce42c1458bff3fd9651699.png

The first Spirit is a capital because it is the first word in the Greek manuscript sentence, for Jn.4:24. The second is lowercase because it is a effectively an adverb describing the method of doing worship. Truth is also lower case for the same reason. The self same word is used though in both places Pneuma, meaning wind or spirit. The main characteristic of 'wind' or 'spirit' is that it cannot be seen. See John 3:8. So it would seem that Jesus is saying above all that God is Spirit, and cannot therefore be seen.

 

 

How about looking at the footnote in the 1599 Geneva Bible at Bible Gateway in comparing it with the KJV?

 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 4%3A24&version=KJV;GNV

 

Can't be reading a lot into that verse when taking the woman's question in context to Jesus's answer, brother.

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