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Faber

Is it proper to worship the Holy Spirit?

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JesusIsFaithful
1 minute ago, Becky said:

"Even I" wow some folks can not not see around their egos.

Well, that was said in case of the event that you all seem to think that does not apply to me when I was saying that applies to every one, and thus proving it so by saying it also applies to me.

 

By the way, are you sticking to the topic at hand or can your reply be seen as attacking the poster, namely me? 

 

But if there is no rule against attacking the poster, I should remind believers that biting and devouring one another is not an example of walking in the Spirit.

 

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

 

Anyway, I am trying to stick to the topic at hand.  In no letter to the churches was there any instructions about worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son , but in Philippians 2:5-13, Paul cites this is the mind of Christ we are to have in worship in glorifying God the Father by and that was the obedience spoken of when in his absence for them to be doing in worship and in fellowship as cited in 1 Corinthians 2:2.  That is keeping with the judgment of honoring the Son in order to honor God the Father in John 5:22-23.

 

That is the issue to be addressed because those are the scripture that does limit the Holy Spirit from being worshiped with the Father and the Son plainly, because the moment you are not honoring the Son, you are no longer honoring the Father.

 

Does any one wishes to address those scriptural references or not?  By not addressing them, I would have to say you really don't have any thing to say against that judgment in John 5:22-23.

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Guest William
17 minutes ago, JesusIsFaithful said:

You can't go wrong by only honoring the Son in worship and by Him, honoring God the Father, but plenty has gone wrong when believers place the Holy Spirit to honor in worship, and you guys see it not as a tree that produces evil fruits.

It is an oxymoron to claim to be Trinitarian and reject worship of the Holy Spirit. The same doctrinal positions made to prove the worship of the Son apply to the Holy Spirit. Being of One Substance all three perfect hypostases, that is, three perfect persons of singular essence, power, dignity, and co-eternal majesty are worthy of worship.

 

Your argument that misguided worship, teaching, and preaching is resolved by rejecting the Holy Spirit is asinine. The Holy Spirit ought to be held in higher regard and not less.

 

This forum is fenced by the ecumenical creeds as outlined by the Terms of Service. Creeds which have for millenniums stood rightfully opposed to all sorts of heresies. Discerning heresies from orthodoxy, and emphasizing the essentials of the faith. Your rejection of the Nicene Creed has placed you outside orthodox Christianity and questionably placed you within the category of a cult.

 

“And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen."

 

As Faber already pointed out in the OP, Matthew 28:19 Jesus commanded baptism “into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” The singularity of the word for “name” and the union implied in the word “into” signifies a univocal authority of the triune God and that our union with God as a result of redemption is fully Trinitarian. This is solidified by the benediction of Paul to close

  • 2 Corinthians 13:14, “The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit [be] with you all.”

If one can infer an argument from such a benediction, we would find Paul referring:

  1. To the grace of Christ in his voluntary condescension to take our nature and our curse
  2. To the love of the Father in sending his eternally beloved Son to complete such a redemptive work
  3. To the work of the Spirit in establishing fellowship between redeemed sinners and the one true God by his divine power that enables him to bring to application all that was determined by the Father and finished by the Son.

This is not up for debate, there are plenty of other websites and forums out there.

 

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JesusIsFaithful
2 minutes ago, Origen said:

Such an asinine response.  So knowing Greek, the language the N.T was written is a problem?  Well, I can see how it is a problem for you.

No.  Leaning on it rather than His wisdom would be a problem.  If we need His wisdom to understand His words as it is written in the KJV, how much MORE will you need it to start from scratch? 

2 minutes ago, Origen said:

 

And what reason do you have for thinking I don't?  I know because I follow the Greek text which does not agree with you.  Please don't pretend you know anything about me or my relationship with God.  You don't.

You started off admitting that you did not know for sure in that you were not going to say what the correct translation was;  you just stated your doubts about it.  Now you are saying otherwise.  An emotional response?  Why is that?

2 minutes ago, Origen said:

 

God lead me to learn Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and Latin.  That was his mission for me.

 

Learning those languages is not the same thing as leaning on Him to understand the meaning of His words from those languages for the message He would have us to grow by in the knowledge of Him.

 

Nowhere in scripture has He ever taught nor prophesied that we have to go back to the Greek and Hebrew to know what He meant, but you seem to come across as saying that this must be so.  Am I wrong?

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12 hours ago, JesusIsFaithful said:

Leaning on it rather than His wisdom would be a problem. 

So what is the evidence that is what I am doing?  I know because you said so.  That is at best only your opinion and not a very good one.

 

12 hours ago, JesusIsFaithful said:

If we need His wisdom to understand His words as it is written in the KJV, how much MORE will you need it to start from scratch? 

Again the only evidence you have is your opinion.  I cited the Greek text which refuted your claim because  your point is based upon an English translation.

 

What from scratch?  I stated learning the languages 35 years ago.

 

12 hours ago, JesusIsFaithful said:

You started off admitting that you did not know for sure in that you were not going to say what the correct translation was

Wrong!  I never anything like that.  Your is comment dishonest.  I was commenting on what RdrEm said was a possible reason why the KJV capitalizes the word "spirit."  In other words, I do not know the reason why they did it, however I do know it is wrong.

 

12 hours ago, JesusIsFaithful said:

you just stated your doubts about it. 

I don't know what you are talking about.  I have zero doubt and never claimed I did.  I gave grammatical reasons why the KJV was wrong.  Clearly you never read what I wrote 

 

12 hours ago, JesusIsFaithful said:

Now you are saying otherwise.  An emotional response?  Why is that?

Untrue!  I never did.  I have explain the context of my comment to RdrEm.  I have explained  grammatical reasons why the KJV was wrong.  Emotions never enter into it.  If you insist on misrepresenting my comments, then we are going to have a problem.  You are being dishonest.

 

12 hours ago, JesusIsFaithful said:

Learning those languages is not the same thing as leaning on Him to understand the meaning of His words from those languages for the message He would have us to grow by in the knowledge of Him.

Oh, but basing your claims on an English translation is better.  What a joke! lol  I guess you did not read what I said.  I said the LORD lead me to learn those languages.  Those are His words in the original languages.

 

12 hours ago, JesusIsFaithful said:

Nowhere in scripture has He ever taught nor prophesied that we have to go back to the Greek and Hebrew to know what He meant, but you seem to come across as saying that this must be so.  Am I wrong?

Your comment simply makes no sense and demonstrates a complete and utter lack of understand on this topic and many others.  English was not the language in which the Bible was written.  Yet you had rather follow an English translation and NOT THE HEBREW\GREEK TEXTS.  That tells me a great deal about your theology and your abilities (or should I say lack there of).  Such a comment as yours shows you are unable to comprehend the issues and problems with your claims.

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Guest RdrEm

@JesusIsFaithful 

 

Quote

Learning those languages is not the same thing as leaning on Him to understand the meaning of His words from those languages for the message He would have us to grow by in the knowledge of Him.


Nowhere in scripture has He ever taught nor prophesied that we have to go back to the Greek and Hebrew to know what He meant, but you seem to come across as saying that this must be so.  Am I wrong?

 

 

Forgive me if I am wrong here, but I think you are talking at slightly cross purposes. I get the impression that you object to the over emphasis in some sections of 'the church' of addressing the Holy Spirit directly in petitionary prayer or directly invoking The Holy Spirit to perform some act of healing, deliverance etc. Am I right?

 

If so then I have to say I agree with you. On the other hand I get the impression that others in here, including myself see the issue as being one of whether it is possible to worship AT ALL without the ministration of The Holy Spirit. Surely ALL communication with The Father is through The Son and facilitated by The Holy Spirit. All are held equally worthy of praise and adoration but we traditionalyy address The Father with our requests, through the merits of Jesus Christ and by the means of the Holy Spirit.

 

I do not really know Benny Hinn so can't really hold an opinion on how he conducts his ministry. What I do know though is that there is only one baptism that matters, and that is the Baptism of The Holy Ghost and fire that John promised would come through Jesus Christ. Matt.3:11.

 

Does that help at all?

 

As to learning the language that the Gospels were actually written in, what could possibly be wrong with doing that if we want to discover what the original actually said. Why rely upon the English words of the KJV translated from the Greek words of The New Testament, without any consultation regarding what the original Greek might have nuanced and the various options of translation that might open up for us? What is more why rely upon a 400 year old translation when we can go directly to the original Greek text and see what it might mean in today's idioms.

 

 I love the KJV but it is now very dated.

 

 

Edited by RdrEm

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There are some problems with the KJV translation "God is a Spirit."

 

By capitalizing "Spirit" the KJV is making the noun definite (i.e. a reference to the Holy Spirit).  Yet there is no grammatical reason why it should be capitalized.

 

Then it places an indefinite article before the noun "spirit."  An indefinite article is "a determiner that introduces a noun phrase and implies that the thing referred to is nonspecific."

 

Thus by using a capital "S" they make the noun specific but by placing an indefinite article before it they make the noun nonspecific.  This is tantamount to saying there is more than one Holy Spirit (i.e. "a" Holy Spirit meaning one among others).  That is why I said the KJV is rather inconsistent with this text.


This is not a reference to the Holy Spirit but to the fact that God is spirit.  The word "spirit" is a qualitative predicate nominative.  This then is a reference to God's ontological nature.  God is a non-corporeal\non-material being.

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Faber
3 hours ago, JesusIsFaithful said:

 

Acts 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

 

That verse is more about Jesus Christ than the Holy Ghost.  That verse is about Jesus Christ and what He did THROUGH the Holy Ghost as in Jesus did it.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

 

The Holy Spirit was crucified and bled for us?  No.  Who did?  Jesus.  So then Jesus has made them overseers of the church through the Holy Spirit in them to feed the church of God and having that Holy Spirit in them is how they are doing this by the authority of the Son.  The same is when Peter speak, it is not really Peter speaking but the Spirit of Christ in them that is speaking the words of Christ to us in edifying others in the knowledge of Him.

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

 

That is still testifying to Jesus Christ as the God that reveals truths unto us through the Holy Spirit in us.  And John 16:13-15 still testify that such revelations given through the Holy Spirit has the Holy Spirit giving credit to that revelation to Jesus Christ.  That is the truth in scripture you are overlooking in the whole operations of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit was still involved (Acts 1:24; cf. 1:2; 20:28) and by the way I did write in the OP that I believe that the prayer is primarily in reference to the Son but that doesn't mean exclusively in reference to Him.

I never asserted that the Holy Spirit was crucified for us so your argument is simply a straw man. 

1 Corinthians 2:10 refers to the Holy Spirit in that He "fathoms everything." 

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Matthew A.Duvall
On ‎6‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 3:37 AM, Faber said:

Since God[*1] is to be worshiped and the Holy Spirit is God it is therefore proper to worship the Holy Spirit.

 

[*1] Steven Tsoukalas: Though I fully adhere to the distinction of the three persons of the Trinity, I also adhere to their unity. Thus, when the Son is prayed to, the Spirit and the Father hear the prayer; and when the Son answers He does so in union with the Father and the Spirit (Knowing Christ in the Challenge of Heresy, page 112, footnote #100).

 

A. Isaiah 6:3 (cf. Revelation 4:8)

And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!” (ESV)

1. Robert Jamieson, Andrew Robert Fausset and David Brown (Isaiah 6:1): I saw also the Lord - here 'Adonaay (Hebrew #136); Yahweh (Hebrew #3068) in Isaiah 6:5. Jesus Christ is meant as speaking in Isaiah 6:10, according to John 12:41...The words of Isaiah 6:10 are attributed by Paul (Acts 28:25-26) to the Holy Spirit. Thus the Trinity, in unity is implied; as also by the thrice "Holy" (Isaiah 6:3).

http://www.studylight.org/commentari.../isaiah-6.html

 

B. Matthew 28:19

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. (NASB)

In water baptism the believer makes an "appeal to God for a good conscience" (1 Peter 3:21). Since the Holy Spirit is included in this "name" He (as well as the Father and the Son) is in view when this liturgical action takes place.

1. Benjamin B. Warfield: This is a direct ascription to Yahweh, the God of Israel, of a threefold personality, and is therewith the direct enunciation of the doctrine of the Trinity. We are not witnessing here the birth of the doctrine of the Trinity; that is presupposed. What we are witnessing is the authoritative announcement of the Trinity as the God of Christianity by its Founder, in one of the most solemn of His recorded declarations. Israel had worshipped the one only true God under the Name of Yahweh; Christians are to worship the same one only and true God under the Name of "the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost." This is the distinguishing characteristic of Christians; and that is as much as to say that the doctrine of the Trinity is, according to our Lord's own apprehension of it, the distinctive mark of the religion which He founded. (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Trinity, See #13 "The Baptismal Formula")

http://www.internationalstandardbibl...trinity-1.html

 

C. Acts 1:24-26

(24) And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

(25) That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

(26) And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. (KJV)

Although I believe this prayer is primarily addressed to the Lord Jesus there is ample evidence that the Holy Spirit[*2] is also in view (as well as the Father). To begin with the Holy Spirit fully knows the hearts of all (Romans 8:26-27; 1 Corinthians 2:10).[*3] He was the One that showed Matthias was the new apostle (cf. Acts 1:2). In fact, in Acts 1:20 the Greek word for bishoprick (episkopē) means overseer and according to Acts 20:28 the Holy Spirit is said to be responsible for fulfilling the task of selecting overseers (episkopos). Therefore, the lots were cast by those praying in order to know the selection of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:26) in which Matthias was to take (Acts 1:25; cf. Acts 1:20).

 

[*2] Kenneth Berding (Acts 1:2): Furthermore, although not stated explicitly, can there be any doubt that when believers prayed in Acts 1:24-25 - "Lord, you know everyone's heart, Show us which one of these two you have chosen to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place" - that in Luke's theology, the "showing" was via the Spirit (cf. Acts 1:2, 5, 8, 16; 2:4; 10:19; 11:12, 28; 13:2 etc.)? (Who Searches Hearts and What Does He Know in Romans 8:27?, Journal of Biblical and Pneumatological Research, Volume 5, 2013, page 101)

 

[*3] The "depth" (Greek: bathos) of God's omniscience as described in Romans 11:33 are the very same "depths" (Greek: bathos) that the Holy Spirit fully knows (1 Corinthians 2:10).

 

D. Acts 13:2-4

(2) While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

(3) Then, when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

(4) So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia and from there they sailed to Cyprus. (NASB)

The Holy Spirit knows the hearts[*4] of those that pray and responds to the prayer[*5] by stating, "Set apart for Me..." adding that "I have called them."[*6]

 

[*4] Having such knowledge demonstrates that the Holy Spirit is omniscient (God).

https://www.christforums.org/forum/c...ean-omniscient

 

[*5] Being God the Holy Spirit is the "Hearer of prayer" (Psalm 65:2).

 

[*6] "Me" and "I" express that the Holy Spirit is a Person (Acts 13:2) while His actions in association with supreme worship denote His Deity. Furthermore, that prayer was rendered unto the "Lord" (in reference to Jesus) coupled with the fact that Paul and Barnabas were "sent out by the Holy Spirit" (Acts 13:4) connects with Isaiah 48:16 in that "the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit."

 

E. 2 Corinthians 13:14

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. (NASB)

This passage constitutes a prayer to all 3 members of the Trinity.

1. Albert Barnes: In regard to this closing verse of the Epistle, we may make the following remarks:

(1) It is a prayer; and if it is a prayer addressed to God, it is no less so to the Lord Jesus and to the Holy Spirit. If so, it is right to offer worship to the Lord Jesus and to the Holy Spirit.

(2) there is a distinction in the divine nature; or there is the existence of what is usually termed three persons in the Godhead. If not, why are they mentioned in this manner? If the Lord Jesus is not divine and equal with the Father, why is he mentioned in this connection? How strange it would be for Paul, an inspired man, to pray in the same breath, "the grace of a man or an angel" and "the love of God" be with you! And if the "Holy Spirit" be merely an influence of God or an attribute of God, how strange to pray that the "love of God" and the participation or fellowship of an "influence of God," or an "attribute of God" might be with them!

(3) the Holy Spirit is a person, or has a distinct personality. He is not an attribute of God, nor a mere divine influence. How could prayer be addressed to an attribute, or an influence? But here, nothing can be plainer than that there were favors which the Holy Spirit, as an intelligent and conscious agent, was expected to bestow. And nothing can be plainer than that they were favors in some sense distinct from those which were conferred by the Lord Jesus, and by the Father. Here is a distinction of some kind as real as that between the Lord Jesus and the Father; here are favors expected from him distinct from those conferred by the Father and the Son; and there is, therefore, here all the proof that there can be, that there is in some respects a distinction between the persons here referred to and that the Holy Spirit is an intelligent, conscious agent.

(4) the Lord Jesus is not inferior to the Father, that is, he has an equality with God. If he were not equal, how could he be mentioned, as he here is, as bestowing favors like God, and especially why is he mentioned first? Would Paul, in invoking blessings, mention the name of a mere man or an angel before that of the eternal God?

(5) the passage, therefore, furnishes a proof of the doctrine of the Trinity that has not yet been answered, and, it is believed, cannot be. On the supposition that there are three persons in the adorable Trinity, united in essence and yet distinct in some respects, all is plain and clear. But on the supposition that, the Lord Jesus is a mere man, an angel, or an archangel, and that the Holy Spirit is an attribute, or an influence from God, how unintelligible, confused, strange does all become! That Paul, in the solemn close of the Epistle, should at the same time invoke blessings from a mere creature, and from God, and from an attribute, surpasses belief. But that he should invoke blessings from him who was the equal with the Father, and from the Father himself, and from the Sacred Spirit sustaining the same rank, and in like manner imparting important blessings, is in accordance with all that we should expect, and makes all harmonious and appropriate.

http://www.studylight.org/commentari...ians-13.html#1

 

F. Revelation 1:4-5

(4) John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,

(5) and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood. (NASB)

This is a prayer to all 3 Persons of the Trinity by John to bless the seven churches to whom he is writing.

1. Marvin Vincent: Paul nowhere joins the Spirit with the Father and the Son in his opening salutations. The nearest approach is 2 Corinthians 13:13. The reference is not to the seven principal angels (Revelation 8:2). These could not be properly spoken of as the source of grace and peace; nor be associated with the Father and the Son; nor take precedence of the Son, as is the case here. Besides, angels are never called spirits in this book. With the expression compare Revelation 4:5, the seven lamps of fire, “which are the seven Spirits of God:” Revelation 3:1, where Jesus is said to have “the seven Spirits of God.” Thus the seven Spirits belong to the Son as well as to the Father (see John 15:26). The prototype of John's expression is found in the vision of Zechariah, where the Messiah is prefigured as a stone with seven eyes, “the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth” (Zechariah 3:9; Zechariah 4:10). Compare also the same prophet's vision of the seven-branched candlestick (Zechariah 4:2).

Hence the Holy Spirit is called the Seven Spirits; the perfect, mystical number seven indicating unity through diversity (1 Corinthians 12:4). Not the sevenfold gifts of the Spirit are meant, but the divine Personality who imparts them; the one Spirit under the diverse manifestations. Richard of St. Victor (cited by Trench, “Seven Churches”) says: “And from the seven Spirits, that is, from the sevenfold Spirit, which indeed is simple in nature, sevenfold in grace.”

http://www.studylight.org/commentari...i?bk=re&ch=1#1

 

G. Notable Citations

1. Andrew E. Hill: By way of worship in the early church, the Jewish Christianity of the first century a.d. facilitated the shift from the theocentric worship characteristic of Judaism to the Christocentric (and even Trinitarian) worship that is the hallmark of Christianity (Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology, Worship - 3rd to the last paragraph).

http://www.studylight.org/dictionari...view.cgi?n=745

2. Wayne Grudem: We are to pray only to God, who alone is omnipotent and thus able to answer prayer and who alone is omniscient and therefore able to hear the prayers of all his people at once. By virtue of omnipotence and omniscience, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are also worthy of being prayed to, but this is not true of any other being (Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine, page 407).

3. Charles Spurgeon: Come, Holy Spirit, we can do nothing without thee. We solemnly invoke thee, great Spirit of God! thou who didst rest on Abraham, on Isaac and on Jacob; thou who in the night visions speaketh unto men. Spirit of the Prophets, Spirit of the Apostles, Spirit of the Church, be thou our Spirit this night, that the earth may tremble, that souls may be made to hear thy word, and that all flesh may rejoice together to praise thy name. Unto Father, Son and Holy Ghost, the dread Supreme, be everlasting praise. Amen. (New Park Street Chapel, Southwark on Tuesday Night, December 31, 1855)

http://www.romans45.org/spurgeon/sermons/0059.htm

While we are to acknowledge the presence of the indwelling Holy Spirit and His operations of helping, leading ,teaching and comforting , there are no specific passages that tell us that we can offer up prays to Him . Jesus always included "praying in My name "  Never mentioning the Holy Spirit .The Acts 28: 25-26 passage does not support anything pertaining to praying to the Holy Spirit. This simply says that He moved the Prophet Isaiah and spoke through him in order to convey the message of God. The Holy Spirit spoke through the  prophets in the old testament just as He spoke through the apostles in the new testament . This does not mean that the Holy Spirit is not an active participant in the prayer process , but not to the point that He  holds a primary role in the actual receiving and answering of prayers . I would not give any thought to praying to the Holy Spirit because of the danger in losing the prayer privilege we have with our Lord Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is God and let us never lose thought of that. Unlike some religions that wrongly teach that the Holy Spirit is a disembodied force of gravity or some other force of energy with no real mission to accomplish. We ,in the Christian community know that we can always rely on the intervention of the Holy Spirit in praying FOR the saints according to the will of God .Rom. 8: 26,27. And this is definitely divine omniscience . He is very God as are the Father and the Son.  M

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Brother James

Hello There... The Holy Spirt is the father in His invisible Holy Spiritual Nature, and it is the Son of God in his human visible nature=Col. 1:15....Brother James....

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Faber
7 hours ago, Matthew Duvall said:

The Acts 28: 25-26 passage does not support anything pertaining to praying to the Holy Spirit. This simply says that He moved the Prophet Isaiah and spoke through him in order to convey the message of God. 

The underlined below is mine.

Isaiah 6:8-10

(8) Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

(9) He said, “Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.’

(10) “Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed.” (NASB)

 

Acts 28:25-27

(25) And when they did not agree with one another, they began leaving after Paul had spoken one parting word, “The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your fathers, saying,
(26) ‘GO TO THIS PEOPLE AND SAY, YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; AND YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;

(27) FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES;
OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES, AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.”’ (NASB)

 

 The fact that the Holy Spirit spoke "through" Isaiah the prophet does not at all detract that they are still the words of the Spirit in Isaiah 6:9-10. For we see that within the same book of Acts that Luke also records the words of the Holy Spirit speaking "through" Agabus and yet they are still the words of the Holy Spirit. In fact, "thus saith the Holy Spirit" is used in an equally authoritative manner when in the Old Testament a prophet declared "thus saith the Lord..."

Acts 21:11

And coming to us, he took Paul's belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, "This is what the Holy Spirit says: 'In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.'" (NASB)
 In the Old Testament when a prophet announced, "Thus says the LORD..." it was a proclamation by the prophet to what God had spoken through him. Likewise, the Holy Spirit communicates His sovereign will to Agabus and spoke through him in order for him to relate it to Paul.
      1. Friedel Selter: In Acts 21:11 Agabus (like the prophets of the OT; cf. Isa 20:2; Jer. 13:1 ff.) carried out a symbolic action with Paul's girdle (a long cloth worn about the waist), to indicate the coming arrest of Paul. "The accompanying word of interpretation 'Thus says the Holy Spirit!' corresponds to the OT 'Thus says Yahweh!'" (E. Haenchen, The Acts of the Apostles, 1971, 602) (NIDNTT 3:121, Ready).
      2. John Gill: and said, thus saith the Holy Ghost; who was in Agabus, and spoke by him, and foretold some things to come to pass; and which did come to pass, and is a proof of the foreknowledge, and so of the deity of the blessed Spirit.
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/geb/acts-21.html

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Guest

Several of the posts in this thread come very close to Modalism while pretending to be Trinitarian.  People need to know that Modalism (i.e. Sabellianism) does not accurately define the doctrine of the trinity.  Please think about your posts, your words, and the idea\thought you are trying to communicate before posting something that could be misunderstood.

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Faber

How "holy" is the Holy Spirit?

 

 My answer is that He is absolutely holy. He did not derive His holiness from anyone/anything else. He always was, is now and forever shall be absolutely holy.

 

 That the Holy Spirit is absolutely holy forms the basis for rendering worship unto Him.[*1]

Revelation 15:3-4[*2]

(3) And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, “Great and amazing are your deeds, O Lord God the Almighty! Just and true are your ways, O King of the nations!
(4) Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.” (ESV)

 

 One of the reasons that God alone is to be worshiped is because God alone is absolutely holy. Since the Holy Spirit is absolutely holy then the Holy Spirit ought to be worshiped.

 

 

 

[*1] That He fully knows the hearts of all (1 Corinthians 2:10) is a foundation for praying to Him.

1 Kings 8:38-39 

whatever prayer...is made...then hear in heaven...for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men. (NASB)

 

[*2] The prayer of Hannah found in 1 Samuel 2 also connects with Revelation 15:4 in that the worship of God is inseparably linked with His absolute holiness.

1 Samuel 2:1-2

Then Hannah prayed and said, My heart exults in the LORD...There is no one holy like the LORD. (NASB)

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Diego

I remember a Priest I knew in the Catholic Church once said that the Holy Ghost "was the forgotten member of the Holy Trinity". In a very real way he was absolutely right. Very few people ever think about the fact that it is entirely permissible, even NECESSARY, to worship the Holy Ghost. I know a Pastor in ELCA who refers often to welcoming visitors "to worship our Triune God with us this Sunday". This is ALSO entirely appropriate. 

 

What, after all, does it mean to make the Sign of the Cross, which is made by Catholics, the Orthodox, many Anglicans, and many Lutherans? When Luther tells us in the Small Catechism that before we say our Morning and Evening Prayers, we "should make the sign of the Holy Cross and then say the following or some other appropriate prayer", what does he mean?

 

What he means, at least, I think, is that ALL members of the Trinity are to be worshipped and glorified equally. How can one even BE Trinitarian and NOT worship all the members of the Trinity? To refuse to give Divine Honour to the Holy Ghost is to at best be Dyarchic, or Binitarian, if you will. From some of the passages I have read here, quoting Exodus 20 and so-forth, the same argument could be made against worshipping Jesus, God made Flesh. 

 

In sum, one HAS to worship all THREE members of the Holy Trinity to be a true Christian. Even if one's own PERSONAL prayers generally take the form of prayers to the Father or the Son, to reject the idea of prayers to the Holy Ghost is to outright deny that God is Triune. Many Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, and Anglicans begin and end prayers by invoking the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and making the Sign of the Cross. Many who do not explicitly invoke the Trinity verbally will still do so by the Sign of the Cross itself before, during, or after the prayer they are saying.

 

In my particular parish of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, I shall admit, Protestantism reigns. I am the only member of the parish who makes the Sign of the Cross except for the Pastor, who of course makes it on us to bless us, but not on himself. I make it on myself, probably due to my upbringing as a Roman Catholic and an Anglo-Catholic. Particularly in High Anglicanism (and High Lutheranism), the Sign of the Cross is made every time one passes in front of the Altar, and frequently throughout Divine Service. Of course, one bows slightly at the Name of Jesus as well. In pre-Vatican II Roman Catholicism this is also done, and the Orthodox are still similar to this day.

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29 minutes ago, Diego said:

I remember a Priest I knew in the Catholic Church once said that the Holy Ghost "was the forgotten member of the Holy Trinity". In a very real way he was absolutely right. Very few people ever think about the fact that it is entirely permissible, even NECESSARY, to worship the Holy Ghost. I know a Pastor in ELCA who refers often to welcoming visitors "to worship our Triune God with us this Sunday". This is ALSO entirely appropriate. 

 

What, after all, does it mean to make the Sign of the Cross, which is made by Catholics, the Orthodox, many Anglicans, and many Lutherans? When Luther tells us in the Small Catechism that before we say our Morning and Evening Prayers, we "should make the sign of the Holy Cross and then say the following or some other appropriate prayer", what does he mean?

 

What he means, at least, I think, is that ALL members of the Trinity are to be worshipped and glorified equally. How can one even BE Trinitarian and NOT worship all the members of the Trinity? To refuse to give Divine Honour to the Holy Ghost is to at best be Dyarchic, or Binitarian, if you will. From some of the passages I have read here, quoting Exodus 20 and so-forth, the same argument could be made against worshipping Jesus, God made Flesh. 

 

In sum, one HAS to worship all THREE members of the Holy Trinity to be a true Christian. Even if one's own PERSONAL prayers generally take the form of prayers to the Father or the Son, to reject the idea of prayers to the Holy Ghost is to outright deny that God is Triune. Many Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, and Anglicans begin and end prayers by invoking the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and making the Sign of the Cross. Many who do not explicitly invoke the Trinity verbally will still do so by the Sign of the Cross itself before, during, or after the prayer they are saying.

 

In my particular parish of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, I shall admit, Protestantism reigns. I am the only member of the parish who makes the Sign of the Cross except for the Pastor, who of course makes it on us to bless us, but not on himself. I make it on myself, probably due to my upbringing as a Roman Catholic and an Anglo-Catholic. Particularly in High Anglicanism (and High Lutheranism), the Sign of the Cross is made every time one passes in front of the Altar, and frequently throughout Divine Service. Of course, one bows slightly at the Name of Jesus as well. In pre-Vatican II Roman Catholicism this is also done, and the Orthodox are still similar to this day.

Good to see you back and posting Diego.

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Diego

And it is good to be back. Thank you.

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Guest William

Just sharing something that I have been racking my brains out over this last week. I do not want to misrepresent your thread and points as to whether it is proper to worship the Holy Spirit. The question I was faced with since last week was whether it would be most correct for us to direct our prayers to the Holy Spirit? I couldn't help but notice the lack of Scriptural evidence for doing so. And I observe that the Reformed Pastors etc. usually begin praying by openly addressing the Father. Various Scriptures and actual examples provided by Jesus led me to this conclusion:

 

The Scriptures are indeed properly conveying and respecting an economic subordination in the Trinity and with proper respect and direction to each Person's roles.

 

If you have no objection, @Faber I would like to expand on this thread and add my question. When the Spirit is "in" us does He direct our prayers to each "proper" divine Person with respect to the Person's roles? In other words, the Spirit directs us to Scripture and the Second Person of the Trinity, and the Son by His examples in Scripture directs us in our prayers to the Father in the Son's name?

 

Further example, would a prayer that begins addressing the Holy Father to grant the Spirit in us to open our eyes, ears, minds, and heart be Scripturally accurate with respect to the economical subordination of the Trinity, that is, rather than directing our initial request directly to the Holy Spirit?

 

Enjoy and God bless,

William

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Faber
6 hours ago, William said:

 When the Spirit is "in" us does He direct our prayers to each "proper" divine Person with respect to the Person's roles? In other words, the Spirit directs us to Scripture and the Second Person of the Trinity, and the Son by His examples in Scripture directs us in our prayers to the Father in the Son's name?

 

Further example, would a prayer that begins addressing the Holy Father to grant the Spirit in us to open our eyes, ears, minds, and heart be Scripturally accurate with respect to the economical subordination of the Trinity, that is, rather than directing our initial request directly to the Holy Spirit?

Hello William,

 I will address each of your questions one by one.

1. I would say "yes". I would not thank the Holy Spirit for dying on the cross for me.

2. The Son does indeed direct us to the Father in the Son's name. Based on John 14:14 the Son also directs us in our prayers to Himself.[*1]

3. Either one would be okay. I read from 2 Corinthians 3:16 that when one "turns to the Lord" which encompasses worshiping Him[*2] that the Holy Spirit is also clearly in view.[*3]

 Most of my prayers begin with "God" or "Lord" (or similar words such as "Almighty God" etc.) with the view that I am addressing all 3 Persons. At various times as I feel led I will direct my prayers to one specific member.[*4]

 

 I recently came across this from Simon Kistemaker which further supports what I my previous comments and citations concerning 2 Corinthians 13:14.

Simon Kistemaker: Countless pastors pronounce this benediction at the conclusion of worship services. It is the blessing of the triune God to the believers who have "come to worship and leave to serve." The prayer is that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit may endow the worshipers with the virtues of love, grace, and fellowship to equip them for service (New Testament Commentary: 2 Corinthians, page 459)

 

On a personal note, I really enjoy the song "Come, Thou Almighty King." It begins with God the Father, then moves to God the Son, next to God the Holy Spirit and then concludes with praising/worshiping all Three.

https://www.hymnal.net/en/hymn/h/3

 

 

 

 

[*1]  Hans Bietenhard: The unity of the Son with the Father finds expressions in the fact that prayer in the name of Jesus can be directed to either Father or Son (TDNT 5:276, onoma).

 

[*2] Psalm 22:27
All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You. (NASB)
 This is in sharp distinction from rendering worship unto idols.

Leviticus 19:4 (cf. Deuteronomy 7:3-4)

Do not turn to idols or make for yourselves molten gods; I am the LORD your God. (NASB)

 

[*3] Murray Harris: But if human beings may rebel against the Spirit of God (Ps. 106:33), resist him (Acts 7:51), grieve him (Isa. 63:10; Eph. 4:30), and insult him (Heb. 10:29), presumably they may also "turn" to him in the sense of responding to is precious overtures and in particular his gentle urging of the claims of the Messiah. When a person turns to the Spirit, he (the Spirit) immediately removes the veil of ignorance concerning Christ (The New International Greek Testament Commentary: The Second Epistle to the Corinthians, page 312).

 

[*4]  Steven Tsoukalas: Though I fully adhere to the distinction of the three persons of the Trinity (see Appendix 2), I also adhere to their unity. Thus, when the Son is prayed to, the Spirit and the Father hear the prayer; and when the Son answers He does so in union with the Father and the Spirit (Knowing Christ in the Challenge of Heresy, page 112, footnote #100).

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Faber

In terms of Revelation 1:4-5 as cited from the OP (the bold below is mine):

 

J. I. Packerthe prayer for grace and peace from the Father, the Spirit, and Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:4-5 (would John have put the Spirit between the Father and the Son if he had not regarded the Spirit as divine in the same sense as they are?). 

 

 The above can be found here:

 

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Faber

Ezekiel 37:9

Then he ordered me, Prophesy to the Spirit, Son of Man. Tell the Spirit, This is what the Lord God says: Come from the four winds, you Spirit, and breathe into these people who have been killed, so they will live. (International Standard Version, the underlined is mine)

 

 The Hebrew word for Spirit (X3) and winds is the same - ruwach. This word can be translated wind, breath or S/spirit.

 

 I believe this is a prayer commanded by God to be prayed by Ezekiel to the Holy Spirit.

     1. Daniel Whedon: Then the prophet once more took heart and finished the prophecy (compare Ezekiel 37:6; Ezekiel 37:9), crying to the universal life-giving divine Spirit to breathe life into these slain, and even as he spake, so was it done! It must be remembered that the same word in Hebrew may be translated either “wind,” “breath,” or “spirit.”

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/whe/ezekiel-37.html

     2. Peter Pett: There is a strong play on the different meanings of ruach, which can mean spirit, breath or wind. The winds are seen as providing lifegiving breath so that the corpses might live, but we must remember that Yahweh comes on the wings of the wind (Ezekiel 1:4; 2 Samuel 22:11; Psalms 18:10; Psalms 104:3). And the wind is elsewhere closely connected with the activity of the Spirit of God (2 Samuel 5:24; Acts 2:2), and thus it is clear that what happens here is the result of the work of God’s Spirit. It is like a new creation (Psalms 33:6).

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/pet/ezekiel-37.html

     3. Thomas Constable (citing Taylor): The second action was tantamount to praying, as Ezekiel besought the Spirit of God to effect the miracle of Revelation -creation, to breathe into man"s nostrils the breath of life (cf. Genesis 2:7). This time the effect was devastating. What preaching by itself failed to achieve, prayer made a reality." [Note: Taylor, p235.]

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/dcc/ezekiel-37.html

 

 Furthermore, notice that in just a few verses later the Spirit (ruwach) is referred to again as the reason they have come to life.

 Ezekiel 37:14

I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it, declares the LORD. (NASB)

 This corresponds with what was spoken concerning the Holy Spirit just one chapter earlier (Ezekiel 36:25-27).

     1. William Mounce: He removes the rebellious heart and replaces it with one that responds in true obedience to God (Ezek. 11:19; 36:26-27). The "Spirit" is the "breath" that brings life to the dead (regeneration), as pictured in Ezekiel’s valley of dry bones (Ezek. 37) (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Spirit, page 675).

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Deidre

I'd think so, it's not a separate entity, but Father, Son, Holy Spirit describe the one triune God.

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Faber

In view of the many passages I cited (beginning from the OP) I firmly believe the Nicene Creed is correct in that it affirms that the Hoy Spirit, 

 

 "Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified"

 

 

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