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Faber

All of the Old Covenant commands are obsolete (Hebrews 8:13)

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Faber
On 1/23/2018 at 10:54 AM, deade said:

 

Hi Faber,

 

You keep bringing up Hebrews 8:13: Saying this tells us the law was done away. Let's get the context of what Hebrews is saying:

 

Hebrews 8:10: “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:”

 

Hebrews 8:11: “And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.”

 

Hebrews 8:12: “For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.”

 

This is addressing a time after Christ comes back and rules the nations with a rod of iron. The iron rod will only be needed for a season. After the people start receiving the blessings of living according to God's will, they will joy in it. Eventually Hebrews 8:11 will become fact. Hebrews 11 has never been true in the history of mankind, and it still is not. Thus it is the millennial reign.

 

Think and pray about it.

 

Yours,

 

Deade

 

 After teaching that the Old Covenant has been made obsolete in Hebrews 8:13, Hebrews 9 begins by discussing the Old Covenant. And Hebrews 9:15 points out that we are under the New Covenant. In fact, Hebrews 10:9 also teaches us that the first covenant has been taken away in order to establish the second (new) covenant.

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Ben Asher
On 2/8/2018 at 2:39 AM, Ransol said:

The Children of promise are Israel, which are us, here and now.

 

I find the above to be confusing.

It would seem that (at least according to Paul) the members of Israel "are enemies of the gospel for your(Christians) sake on the other hand concerning the election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs"(Romans 11:28).

 

A true Christian by his/her very nature can not claim to be an enemy of the Gospel, can he/she?

 

 

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Guest Becky

Mat 22:37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 
Mat 22:38  This is the first and great commandment. 
Mat 22:39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 
Mat 22:40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. 
 

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Ben Asher
1 hour ago, Faber said:

After teaching that the Old Covenant has been made obsolete

What is meant by Old Covenant?

 

(1) Noahic Covenant /שבע מצוות בני נח / הברית עם נוח

(2) The various Abrahamic covenants  הברית עם אברהם
(3) Mosaic Covenant ברית משה
(4) Davidic Covenant ברית דוד
(5) The covenant mentioned in the book of Jeremiah ברית חדשה the ברית עולם הבא

(6) The Hebrew Bible as a whole (Mikra) מקרא or rather the (Tanakh)תנ"ך

(7) Two or more of the above?

(8) None of the above, other?

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atpollard
1 hour ago, Ben Asher said:

What is meant by Old Covenant?

 

(1) Noahic Covenant /שבע מצוות בני נח / הברית עם נוח

(2) The various Abrahamic covenants  הברית עם אברהם
(3) Mosaic Covenant ברית משה
(4) Davidic Covenant ברית דוד
(5) The covenant mentioned in the book of Jeremiah ברית חדשה the ברית עולם הבא

(6) The Hebrew Bible as a whole (Mikra) מקרא or rather the (Tanakh)תנ"ך

(7) Two or more of the above?

(8) None of the above, other?

I think the calendar got this one right ... the incarnation, death and resurrection of GOD in the person of Jesus is a big enough deal that it separates EVERYTHING that came before from EVERYTHING that comes after.  All covenants, past and future, point towards Jesus and the incarnation.

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deade
8 hours ago, Faber said:

 After teaching that the Old Covenant has been made obsolete in Hebrews 8:13, Hebrews 9 begins by discussing the Old Covenant. And Hebrews 9:15 points out that we are under the New Covenant. In fact, Hebrews 10:9 also teaches us that the first covenant has been taken away in order to establish the second (new) covenant.

When the disciples received the Holy Ghost in Acts 2, what was the reference to Joel about? And what about the part in the last verse (2:21) “that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved?”

 

Acts 2:16-21: “But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

 

Has there been any era where that has happened? Joel chapter 1 speaks about the devastation of the earth and the Day of the Lord (Future events).

 

Then Joel 2 ends with: 31: “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.” 32: “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.”

 

Many say we are already in God’s new covenant that was prophesied in the OT and in Acts/Hebrews.

 

Heb. 8:7-13 “For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.” 

 

Jer. 31:31-34 “Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” 

 

Do you see the direct link between Jeremiah and Hebrews? What about the parallels in Acts and Joel?

 

Acts 2:16-18 “But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:”

 

First a time frame in Joel: Joel 2:1 “Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;”

 

Next, it speaks of a restoration after the Day of the Lord. Then we are given a picture of the new covenant: Joel 2:28, 29 “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.” 

 

What can we conclude from this? What we have today is not the New Covenant God was talking about. Not yet. The way I read that is everyone that calls on the Lord will have salvation. Surely, that is not today. So, when is it?

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Faber
3 hours ago, deade said:

What can we conclude from this? What we have today is not the New Covenant God was talking about. Not yet. The way I read that is everyone that calls on the Lord will have salvation. Surely, that is not today. So, when is it?

 

It is today and has been true concerning those who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus for salvation since the Church age began (Acts 2:4).

 This is recorded several times in the New Covenant as to what Christians have done (Romans 10:13; 1 Corinthians 1:2; etc.). If one has not called upon the name of the Lord Jesus for salvation then this person is not a Christian.

 

Stephen Motyer: The New Testament use of this expression is remarkable for the way in which it is applied to Jesus. Joel 2:32 is quoted in both Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13, but in both places "the Lord" is then identified as Jesus (Acts 2:36; Romans 10:14). The dramatic conviction of the first (Jewish) Christians was that Israel's worship needed to be redirected: people could no longer be saved by calling on Yahweh/Jehovah, the Old Testament name of God, but only on that of Jesus: "there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). To "call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 1:2) therefore means worshiping him with divine honors (Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology, Call, Calling).

https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/bed/c/call-calling.html

 

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Faber
3 hours ago, deade said:

Has there been any era where that has happened? 

David Guzik: 

c. It shall come to pass in the last days: The idea of the last days is that they are the times of the Messiah, encompassing both His humble coming and His return in glory. Because Jesus had already come in humility, they were aware that His return in glory could be any time.

i. Though there would be some 2,000 years until Jesus returned, until this point, history had been running towards the point of the ultimate establishment of God’s kingdom on earth. But from this time on, history runs parallel to that point, ready at any time for the consummation.

ii. It may also be helpful to see the last days as something like a season – a general period of time – more than a specific period, such as a week. In the whole span of God’s plan for human history, we are in the season of the last days.

iii. “Peter did not say of that pentecostal enduement, ‘Now is fulfilled that which was spoken by the prophet Joel,’ but, more guardedly, ‘This is that which was spoken;’ that is to say, Joel’s words furnish the explanation of this first Pentecost, though this does not finish their fulfillment.” (Pierson)

https://enduringword.com/bible-commentary/acts-2/

 

 

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atpollard
5 hours ago, deade said:

What can we conclude from this? What we have today is not the New Covenant God was talking about. Not yet. The way I read that is everyone that calls on the Lord will have salvation. Surely, that is not today. So, when is it?

ALREADY AND NOT YET

A lengthy teaching through the Southern Baptist Faith and Message introduced me a useful concept called “already and not yet”.  The premise was that most things of any significance in the Bible have an “already” and a “not yet” aspect to them.

 

Let’s use ‘salvation’ as an example.  In a sense we were “saved” before the foundation of the world when we were ‘foreknown’ by God.  Then too, we were “saved” when Jesus died on the cross 2000 years ago and our sins were washed clean by His blood.  Then again, we were “saved” when our heart was changed and we repented, or was it when we were baptized and received the Holy Spirit?  ... any way you look at it, we were/are “already” saved.  But we are “not yet” home.  We are “not yet” sanctified”.  The suffering in our bodies and lives and the flesh testify that we are “not yet” glorified.  Thus our ‘salvation’ is a past (at the Cross), present (progressive Sanctification) and future (glorification) event.

 

I posit that something as important as God’s plan for the Church in the New Covenant is also an “already and not yet” event.

YMMV

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deade
1 hour ago, atpollard said:

ALREADY AND NOT YET

A lengthy teaching through the Southern Baptist Faith and Message introduced me a useful concept called “already and not yet”.  The premise was that most things of any significance in the Bible have an “already” and a “not yet” aspect to them.

 

Let’s use ‘salvation’ as an example.  In a sense we were “saved” before the foundation of the world when we were ‘foreknown’ by God.  Then too, we were “saved” when Jesus died on the cross 2000 years ago and our sins were washed clean by His blood.  Then again, we were “saved” when our heart was changed and we repented, or was it when we were baptized and received the Holy Spirit?  ... any way you look at it, we were/are “already” saved.  But we are “not yet” home.  We are “not yet” sanctified”.  The suffering in our bodies and lives and the flesh testify that we are “not yet” glorified.  Thus our ‘salvation’ is a past (at the Cross), present (progressive Sanctification) and future (glorification) event.

 

I posit that something as important as God’s plan for the Church in the New Covenant is also an “already and not yet” event.

YMMV

Yes indeed, the element of time trips us up. We need to think more on the Godlike plane to understand everything. Like calling ourselves "saved." I liken it to prophesying our future. We are allowed to call ourselves saved but it isn't really finished until we are immortal. 

 

Rom. 4:17 "(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were."

 

This is not God lying, He is prophesying. I think it unlocks a lot of scripture.

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deade
On 3/31/2019 at 7:54 AM, Faber said:

 After teaching that the Old Covenant has been made obsolete in Hebrews 8:13, Hebrews 9 begins by discussing the Old Covenant. And Hebrews 9:15 points out that we are under the New Covenant. In fact, Hebrews 10:9 also teaches us that the first covenant has been taken away in order to establish the second (new) covenant.

 

I forgot to address your references in Hebrews. Remember Heb. 8:11 tells us that all our neighbors will know the Lord, I said was yet future. Well 8:13 simply states the old is ready to vanish away. I don't believe this is now, I would be hard pressed to find a neighbor serving God.

 

When we get to Romans 9 starting at verse 11, he is talking about the sacrificial laws and ordinances; how they have been replaced. Chapter 10 talks more of that and the other rites and what they shadowed. I believe we are partially under the new covenant but, like the lamb's blood, it points to a new era. Verse 9 of chapter 10 is speaking directly of the animal sacrifices.

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Faber

1. A. T. Robertson: In the new covenant all will be taught of God (Isaiah 54:13; John 6:45), whereas under the old only the educated scribe could understand the minutiae of the law (Dods). See Paul‘s comparison in 2 Corinthians 3:7-18.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/rwp/hebrews-8.html

2. John Gill: the knowledge of the Lord, under the New Testament dispensation, is greater than under the former dispensation; the subject matter of it is more distinct; God is more known in the persons of the Father, Son, and Spirit, in the perfections of his nature, in his titles and characters, and in his Son; the manner of it is more clear, open, and perspicuous; the persons to whom it is communicated are more numerous; it is not restrained to Jews, but is given to the Gentiles; and all this owing to a greater effusion of the Spirit; see 1 John 2:27.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/geb/hebrews-8.html

3. Peter Pett: In Old Testament days there was a constant looking to the priests and to the wise for help, while in general the people got on with their lives. That was actually their problem, that God became second hand. (There were, of course, always the exceptions, which included the prophets themselves). But this is in contrast with the openness of heart and mind in the New Testament days as the abundance of the Spirit illuminates the thoughts of even the most simple. Under the old covenant the priests stood between men and a knowledge of God, under the new the approach to God is direct and personal. The barriers are broken down. "They will be all taught of God" (John 6:45)

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/pet/hebrews-8.html

 

 This is why it is better to go by ow the words of the Bible are actually defined. See the OP. Furthermore, your previous assertion that, "The way I read that is everyone that calls on the Lord will have salvation. Surely, that is not today" is clearly in error. It is for today. This is why even after Peter declared this truth in Acts 2:21, all Christians were known as those who have already done so (Acts 9:14, 21; cf. Acts 22:16). Paul also taught the very same thing (Romans 10:13; 1 Corinthians 1:2).

 

 Have you called upon the name of the Lord Jesus for salvation?

https://www.christforums.com/forums/topic/8806-calling-on-the-name-of-the-lord-praying-to-jesus/?tab=comments#comment-53975

 

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Matthew A.Duvall
On ‎9‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 5:44 PM, Faber said:

The only commands from the Old Covenant that are binding on the Christian are those that have been repeated in the New Covenant.

 

 

Hebrews 8:13

When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (NASB)

 

The Greek word for "obsolete" is palaioō.

 

1. BDAG (3rd Edition): treat the first covenant as obsolete Hb 8:13a (palaioō, page 751).

2. J. P. Louw and Eugene Nida: to cause to become old and obsolete, and hence no longer valid -'to make old, to make out of date.' 'by speaking of a new covenant, he has made the first one out of date' He 8.13 (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains, 67:103, palaioō, page 643).

3. NIDNTT: Heb. 8:13 takes up the promise of the new covenant of Jer. 31:31-35: "In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete [pepalaōiken]. And what is becoming obsolete [palaioumenon] and growing old [gēraskon] is ready to vanish away." This is entirely God's work. Seeing that God in Christ makes a new covenant, the old covenant of the law has become obsolete. In Christ the first can be regarded only as old and fulfilled (2 Cor. 3:14) (2:716, Old/One, H. Haarbeck).

 

Christ died to fulfill all of the old testament laws pertaining to  righteousness . But some will say that He died to fulfill the Ten Commandments . That is definitely not true .

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GodsGrace
22 hours ago, Matthew Duvall said:

Christ died to fulfill all of the old testament laws pertaining to  righteousness . But some will say that He died to fulfill the Ten Commandments . That is definitely not true .

What do you mean by "fulfilled"?

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Matthew A.Duvall
7 hours ago, GodsGrace said:

What do you mean by "fulfilled"?

Christ died to fulfil the laws pertaining to justification under the old covenant statures . I stated that the Ten Commandments were not included in that group because they did not bring about justification in order to be saved . We certainly do not kill people because killing is just plain wrong . Matt 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets . I did not come to destroy but to fulfill ."  :classic_ohmy:  M

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GodsGrace
12 hours ago, Matthew Duvall said:

Christ died to fulfil the laws pertaining to justification under the old covenant statures . I stated that the Ten Commandments were not included in that group because they did not bring about justification in order to be saved . We certainly do not kill people because killing is just plain wrong . Matt 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets . I did not come to destroy but to fulfill ."  :classic_ohmy:  M

Hi MD,

 

I asked because we misunderstand what it means to fulfill the law.

Some believe it means to abolish,,,but Jesus said He did not come to abolish the law, in the very next veses of Mathew 5....

 

Here is a good link:

 

 

I'd like to add that no covenant ever abolished the previous one.

Each subsequent covenant, starting with the Edenic, either added, or changed something about the prior one.

 

I'm sorry, I didn't read every post and may be repeating something someone has already mentioned....

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Guest William

May people today choose which Covenant to enter into with God? May some say I am Noahic, Abrahamic, and some Mosaic, etc?

 

Perhaps I reject Jesus Christ and think the Old Covenant is far more better, especially in contrast to the theological view held by Credo-Baptist because my children were included in the Old. So may I reject the New Covenant and decide to enter into and live by the Old Covenant? Does God honor such decisions?

 

Will God owe me a deed to some land?

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Ben Asher
On 4/1/2019 at 6:36 AM, deade said:

 

What can we conclude from this? What we have today is not the New Covenant God was talking about.

Agreed...

If  "New Covenant" refers to what is described in detail throughout chapter 31 of Jeremiah (especially 31:31 ~ 38). 

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Guest
1 hour ago, GodsGrace said:

Hi MD,

 

I asked because we misunderstand what it means to fulfill the law.

Some believe it means to abolish,,,but Jesus said He did not come to abolish the law, in the very next veses of Mathew 5....

 

Here is a good link:

 

 

I'd like to add that no covenant ever abolished the previous one.

Each subsequent covenant, starting with the Edenic, either added, or changed something about the prior one.

 

I'm sorry, I didn't read every post and may be repeating something someone has already mentioned....

Lois Tverberg is not a Biblical scholar.  Nor is she an expert in Hebrew, Greek, or Rabbinic Judaism.  Her credentials are in biology/physiology.

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Guest William
1 minute ago, Origen said:

Lois Tverberg is not a Biblical scholar.  Nor is she an expert in Hebrew, Greek, or Rabbinic Judaism.  Her credentials are in biology\physiology.

Only a lunatic would put all scholars in the same boat (inside joke).

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Ben Asher
20 minutes ago, William said:

May people today choose which Covenant to enter into with God? May some say I am Noahic, Abrahamic, and some Mosaic, etc?

1

No! Even long ago people, in general, could not choose which covenant they could enter as the ancient covenants, in general, were not universally offered to everyone. 

 

Before I became a Christian I recall well-meaning individuals stating to me that "we are no longer under the law" and I always found it a little disingenuous of them as it was obvious to me  that those  individuals had never had attempted to observe the 613 mitzvot in the Torah and were never under any obligation to do so.

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GodsGrace
18 minutes ago, Origen said:

Lois Tverberg is not a Biblical scholar.  Nor is she an expert in Hebrew, Greek, or Rabbinic Judaism.  Her credentials are in biology\physiology.

Origen,

I don't know who LT is.

 

When I post a link it's because it explains well what I believe to be true.

(and maybe in more detail).

 

Did the writer of the article say something you don't agree with?

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Guest William
18 minutes ago, Ben Asher said:

No! Even long ago people, in general, could not choose which covenant they could enter as the ancient covenants, in general, were not universally offered to everyone.  

 

Before I became a Christian I recall well-meaning individuals stating to me that "we are no longer under the law" and I always found it a little disingenuous of them as it was obvious to me  that those  individuals had never had attempted to observe the 613 mitzvot in the Torah and were never under any obligation to do so.

Thanks Ben,

 

Asking for clarification, couldn't one in the OT be proselytized?

 

Regarding ancient covenants are they still in effect by blood descent today? IOW, I'm asking though a Covenant may not be universally offered but by blood is the ancient Covenant still in effect today?

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GodsGrace
16 minutes ago, Ben Asher said:

No! Even long ago people, in general, could not choose which covenant they could enter as the ancient covenants, in general, were not universally offered to everyone. 

 

Before I became a Christian I recall well-meaning individuals stating to me that "we are no longer under the law" and I always found it a little disingenuous of them as it was obvious to me  that those  individuals had never had attempted to observe the 613 mitzvot in the Torah and were never under any obligation to do so.

It's my personal experience that when persons say that they are not "under the law" they mean, exactly why I posted the link about what fulfill means, that they do things for God because they WANT to and not because they HAVE to.

 

My link shows otherwise.

 

It's my contention that God requires us to obey Him and it's not a choice we have.

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Guest
32 minutes ago, GodsGrace said:

I don't know who LT is.

That is the author of the article to which you link.  I would think that is something one ought to know before citing a source.

 

32 minutes ago, GodsGrace said:

When I post a link it's because it explains well what I believe to be true.

(and maybe in more detail).

One must consider if the person cited knows what they are taking about.  As I pointed out Lois Tverberg is not a Biblical scholar.  Nor is she an expert in Hebrew, Greek, or Rabbinic Judaism.  Her credentials are in biology/physiology.

 

32 minutes ago, GodsGrace said:

Did the writer of the article say something you don't agree with?

For one her claims concerning the Mishnah are suspect to say the least.

 

My point being perhaps one ought not point to her as knowledgeable source on the subject.  Just because one thinks she is right does not mean she is correct or even dependable.

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