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Welcome to SovereignGraceSingles.com. Where Reformed Faith and Romance Come Together! We are the only Christian dating website for Christian Singles in the Reformed Faith worldwide. Our focus is to bring together Christian singles of all ages. Reformed single Christian men and women who wish to meet other Reformed Christian singles for spiritually, like-minded, loving relationships.
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Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” - Genesis 2:18
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Meet Like Minded Believers Can two walk together except they be agreed? - Amos 3:3
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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
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SGS offers a "fenced" community: both for private single members and also a public Protestant forums open to Bible-believing Christians such as Presbyterians, Lutherans, Reformed, Baptists, Church of Christ members, Pentecostals, Anglicans. Methodists, Charismatics, or any other conservative, Nicene-derived Christian Church.
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Faber

All of the Old Covenant commands are obsolete (Hebrews 8:13)

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Guest William
16 minutes ago, GodsGrace said:

It's my contention that God requires us to obey Him and it's not a choice we have.

I think you're correct:

 

Ezekiel 36:25-27

 

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

 

 

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GodsGrace
48 minutes ago, Origen said:

That is the author of the article to which you link.  I would think that is something one ought to know before citing a source.

 

One must consider if the person cited knows what they are taking about.  As I pointed out Lois Tverberg is not a Biblical scholar.  Nor is she an expert in Hebrew, Greek, or Rabbinic Judaism.  Her credentials are in biology/physiology.

 

For one her claims concerning the Mishnah are suspect to say the least.

 

My point being perhaps one ought not point to her as knowledgeable source on the subject.  Just because one thinks she is right does not mean she is correct or even dependable.

I know what you mean O.

But if I had to know everyone I link, I'd never link anyone.

Sometimes I link stuff from John Piper or John Calvin...go figure.

 

If it says what I want to say but better, I link it for that reason.

I'm responsible for what I link...not the author responsible for what they believe.

 

Don't know how else to say this....

What I link is what I BELIEVE to be true...

No matter WHO says it.

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GodsGrace
49 minutes ago, William said:

I think you're correct:

 

Ezekiel 36:25-27

 

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

 

 

You're sneaky William!

But OK,,,,I even checked my Italian bible and it says "I will make it so that you follow my rules"...

 

So we have no free will?

JK !

:RpS_smile:

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Guest William
9 minutes ago, GodsGrace said:

You're sneaky William!

But OK,,,,I even checked my Italian bible and it says "I will make it so that you follow my rules"...

 

So we have no free will?

JK !

:RpS_smile:

To emphasize the fruits of the Holy Spirit and true "good works", please consider,

 

Philippians 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

 

And consider exactly what we do and God does in Ezekiel 36:25-27. Just as the questions posed to another in the entire order of salvation as presented in Ephesians chapter one in the case of regeneration one may ask what is left to me and what is of God?

 

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

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GodsGrace
6 minutes ago, William said:

To emphasize the fruits of the Holy Spirit and true "good works", please consider,

 

Philippians 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

 

And consider exactly what we do and God does in Ezekiel 36:25-27. Just as the questions posed to another in the entire order of salvation as presented in Ephesians chapter one in the case of regeneration one may ask what is left to me and what is of God?

 

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

I've considered everything W.

Anything can be proven from some verses....I  believe what we have to do is take the entire bible as a whole thought and go with that.

 

God said He would take out the heart of stone and give us a new heart.

Instead of tablets of stone,,we now follow our heart.  Question is:  How did we get that heart?  Did God put it in us against our free will?  Or do we have to want that new, fleshy heart?  As you know, I believe the second.

 

Even after God put the new heart in His people and brought them back to their lands....they still disobeyed Him.  Does this mean that God failed at what He wanted to do?  No, it doesn't.  It means that He gives us the opportunity to accept what He has for us, but we have to be willing to go along with Him.

 

There's no idea in the bible that our free will has been taken away...it's this free will that makes man leave the side of God...each and every time.  Otherwise it would surely mean that God fails at what He attempts to do.

 

As for Philippians 2:12-13,,,,yes,,,it's the Holy Spirit in us that helps us to know what God wants from us and that gives  us the strength to follow, IF we want to follow.  We're much more able today to follow God than persons were in the O.T. times.  Jesus went away so the paraclete could come to us.  Even Jesus said it was good for Him to leave so the helper could come to us.

John 16:7

 

God works in us to will to do what He wants...I just don't see anywhere in the bible where our free will is taken away and replaced totally with His will.

 

Doesn't John 15:6 show that we have free will?

Jesus says that IF we do not abide with Him, we are lost...why say this if it's not up to us to continue to abide in Him?

 

John 15:6-7

6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, .....

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Deidre

Are they considered ''obsolete'' or ''fulfilled?'' I'd say the latter, tbh. 

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Ben Asher
5 hours ago, William said:

Asking for clarification, couldn't one in the OT be proselytized?

Not, particularly sure what you mean by proselytized?

However, in the Hebrew Bible people could join the nation of Israel (and perhaps be converted in modern terms)  one such example is Ruth. The residents of Nineveh in the Book of Jonah at leas\ become God-fearers, but it is not clear if they become part of biblical Israel or embraced the entire Torah.

 

5 hours ago, William said:

Covenant may not be universally offered but by blood is the ancient Covenant still in effect today?

Not clear what you trying to ask concerning blood?

 

However, I will answer this way:

 

The covenant of Noah (the only truly universal covenant) Genesis chapter 9 especially 9:11–13 (and 9:1-7) at least from the way it is described would appear to be still in effect today unless of course, one believes that God will go back on his word and destroy the world by water?

 

Paul's argument about "Grace vs Law" appears to me to suggest that the Abrahamic covenant has not been superseded by the Law (Galatians 3:17).

 

Paul again in speaking of the Abrahamic covenant claims that  "From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."(NAS Romans 11:28-29). "They" clearly does not speak of Christians unless of course, one wants to claim that Christians are enemies of the Gospel for the Churches sake? But, in context, that point of view would make absolutely no sense. In the same pericope (Romans chapter 11 see 11:26-27)  Paul speaking of Jews/Israel refers to the covenant described in Jeremiah 31:33 and to Isaiah 59:20. Paul, there is clearly speaking of something that had not occurred yet at least not at the time of the writing of chapter 11 of Romans.  Abrahamic covenant and the one spoken of by Jeremiah were not erased or superseded for if they were Paul could not very well make an appeal to them. 

 

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Ben Asher
6 hours ago, GodsGrace said:

It's my personal experience that when persons say that they are not "under the law" they mean, exactly why I posted the link about what fulfill means, that they do things for God because they WANT to and not because they HAVE to. 

 

To this day I still find it odd to hear Christians from non-observant Jewish backgrounds to claim to be no longer under the law. To be no longer under something implies that at one time one was under something. Yet, if I were to open up my Tanakh/Hebrew Bible to the Torah/Pentatuech/ Law or even to the Shulchan Aruch few if any of those same individuals could actually read what the Torah says. It is to me is just as if they claimed to be no longer a practicing Lawyer or Doctor when in fact they never were. I have ridden in Taxis and know something about them, but I can not claim to be, no longer a Taxi driver, for the very fact that I was never a Taxi driver.

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atpollard
7 hours ago, GodsGrace said:

You're sneaky William!

But OK,,,,I even checked my Italian bible and it says "I will make it so that you follow my rules"...

 

So we have no free will?

JK !

:RpS_smile:

If you were addicted to crack cocaine, and someone gave you a “magic injection” that instantly shattered the drug addiction craving, would you describe the event as them “freeing” you from your slavery to addiction, or would you complain that they had “robbed” you of your freedom to be enslaved to drug addiction?

 

God has robbed you of your slavery to sin addiction and given you the freedom to be able to obey His laws ... just like Ezekiel 36:25-27 says he would.

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atpollard
2 hours ago, Ben Asher said:

To this day I still find it odd to hear Christians from non-observant Jewish backgrounds to claim to be no longer under the law. To be no longer under something implies that at one time one was under something. Yet, if I were to open up my Tanakh/Hebrew Bible to the Torah/Pentatuech/ Law or even to the Shulchan Aruch few if any of those same individuals could actually read what the Torah says. It is to me is just as if they claimed to be no longer a practicing Lawyer or Doctor when in fact they never were. I have ridden in Taxis and know something about them, but I can not claim to be, no longer a Taxi driver, for the very fact that I was never a Taxi driver.

Do you mean that I repented of those people I set on fire for NOTHING! 

... I was never under any obligation prior to my salvation.

(Then why did it feel like sin?)

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Ben Asher
4 hours ago, atpollard said:

Do you mean that...

One: In general, at least in English, when I mean something I explicitly state it. 

 

Two: Just because someone is not under the Mosaic Law does not mean that they do not have a covenant, laws, rules, or guidelines that they must follow. 

 

For example the:

(a) The Noahic Covenant in 

Genesis 9:8-17 otherwise known and the Sheva Mitzvot B'nei Noach.

 

(b) The laws of one’s country, commonwealth, state, county, or area. 

 

(c) The Covent of one’s club, social community, community of faith and or religion.

 

(d) One’s God given conscious.

 

Still when Christians or anyone else claims to have been under the Torah or to have been observing the Torah she-bi-khtav and/or the Torah she-be-`al peh I expect that they will at least able read what they are claiming to have followed and observed or have some knowledge of the Torah.

Edited by Ben Asher

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Faber
10 hours ago, Ben Asher said:

To this day I still find it odd to hear Christians from non-observant Jewish backgrounds to claim to be no longer under the law. 

 I think what they might mean (?) is that God's people are no longer under the old covenant laws.

 Christians though are indeed under the law of Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21; Galatians 6:2).

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GodsGrace
13 hours ago, Ben Asher said:

To this day I still find it odd to hear Christians from non-observant Jewish backgrounds to claim to be no longer under the law. To be no longer under something implies that at one time one was under something. Yet, if I were to open up my Tanakh/Hebrew Bible to the Torah/Pentatuech/ Law or even to the Shulchan Aruch few if any of those same individuals could actually read what the Torah says. It is to me is just as if they claimed to be no longer a practicing Lawyer or Doctor when in fact they never were. I have ridden in Taxis and know something about them, but I can not claim to be, no longer a Taxi driver, for the very fact that I was never a Taxi driver.

Exactly!  When did a Christian EVER follow the 613 Laws of Moses??

What bothers me is that they mean they are not under the Mosaic  Law, which includes the 10 commandments.

 

I'm sure you know that for Christians Jesus did abolish the civil laws and the ceremonial laws.  

 

He did not abolish the Moral Law (10 commandments) because God is the very essence of morality and cannot be separated by His own laws.  Even secular persons follow the Natural Law (not the law of nature).

 

Christians ARE under the Moral Law...in fact I'm rather confused about observing the Sabbath:  Sometimes I think we should be following all 10 commandments, and sometimes I think the Sabbath was changed to Sunday - resurrection day....

which would make the commandments only 9. Of course, it's said that the Sabbath was changed to Sunday, the first day of the week.

 

This all has to do with the freedom people seem to claim by being saved.

It's said to me that we're free to do what we want to, but we won't want to if we're saved.

 

I guess I should clarify that I do believe we have free will and cannot be made to do anything against our will....if we are,,,then it's God that makes us sin and this would go against the Moral Law.

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GodsGrace
10 hours ago, atpollard said:

Do you mean that I repented of those people I set on fire for NOTHING! 

... I was never under any obligation prior to my salvation.

(Then why did it feel like sin?)

It felt like sin because of the Natural Law.

 

@Ben Asher calls is God-given conscience....but I could argue against that...

We only have a God-given conscience IF we are trained in God's laws for us.

 

I might be wrong about what Ben Asher believes is God-given conscience.

He might want to comment on this...

 

 

 

Edited by GodsGrace

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GodsGrace
10 hours ago, atpollard said:

If you were addicted to crack cocaine, and someone gave you a “magic injection” that instantly shattered the drug addiction craving, would you describe the event as them “freeing” you from your slavery to addiction, or would you complain that they had “robbed” you of your freedom to be enslaved to drug addiction?

 

God has robbed you of your slavery to sin addiction and given you the freedom to be able to obey His laws ... just like Ezekiel 36:25-27 says he would.

It would depend on whether or not I WANTED to be free of the addiction.

 

If not,  then I'd call it robbing me of my freedom to take drugs and be drug addicted.

 

The reason it is fought so much is because it affects other persons,,,as does ALL sin...however it should be up to ME to decide if I want to be free of it or not.

 

I don't like totalitarian governments, and that's what you're using in your example.

Someone doing something to me I do not want done to me.

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Deidre

Thanks for that, GG. I like how you conveyed that. :)

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atpollard
1 hour ago, GodsGrace said:

It would depend on whether or not I WANTED to be free of the addiction.

 

If not,  then I'd call it robbing me of my freedom to take drugs and be drug addicted.

 

The reason it is fought so much is because it affects other persons,,,as does ALL sin...however it should be up to ME to decide if I want to be free of it or not.

 

I don't like totalitarian governments, and that's what you're using in your example.

Someone doing something to me I do not want done to me.

You apparently don't know many drug addicts.  No one WANTS to live like that, they ARE slaves to their addiction.  They cannot, as a rule, just "choose" to be free.

 

Human beings are ALL "sin addicts" ... Total Depravity (aka. Total Inability).

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Guest Becky
1 hour ago, GodsGrace said:

D,  There were 3 types of law in the O.T.

Civil Law

Ceremonial Law

Moral Law

 

Civil Law was marriage and other laws that had to do with engagement with the government of the time, taxes, etc.

 

Ceremonial Law was following God's ceremonial requirements,,,for example sacrifices and circumcision...

 

Moral Law was the 10 commandments.

 

 

The first two have been abolished for us, Christians.

The Moral Law has been moved from the head to the heart and has not been abolished...and never will be.

 

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atpollard
9 hours ago, Ben Asher said:

One: In general, at least in English, when I mean something I explicitly state it. 

It appears that I was not clear in my attempt to point out an obvious consequence of what you had stated.

 

9 hours ago, Ben Asher said:

Two: Just because someone is not under the Mosaic Law does not mean that they do not have a covenant, laws, rules, or guidelines that they must follow.

Excellent, let's examine them:

 

9 hours ago, Ben Asher said:

For example the:

(a) The Noahic Covenant in 

Genesis 9:8-17 otherwise known and the Sheva Mitzvot B'nei Noach.

Genesis 9:4 forbids eating blood ... yuck ... not a problem, I never did that.

 

Genesis 9:5 forbids the shedding of man's blood.  Technically, the people I burned oozed, but never bled, so there is no sin here in setting people on fire.

 

Genesis 9:8-17 is all about God promising never to flood the Earth again, so there is no sin here in setting people on fire.

 

The Noahic Covenant also offers no prohibitions on lying, cheating, stealing or even worshiping idols.

 

9 hours ago, Ben Asher said:

(b) The laws of one’s country, commonwealth, state, county, or area. 

Disobeying civil laws carry civil penalties, but I see nothing to indicate that it is a sin (violation of moral law).  Failure to return escaped slaves to their owners in the South was a violation of civil law.  Rosa Parks sitting at the front of the bus was a violation of civil law.  Hiding Jews from ... well you get the idea.  Do you have anything Noahic or Adamic to suggest that all mankind is commanded to respect civil authority?  Thus setting people on fire is a crime, but not a sin.

 

9 hours ago, Ben Asher said:

(c) The Covent of one’s club, social community, community of faith and or religion.

As a Nihilistic Atheist and gang member ... I was following the rules of my "community" and "faith".  So no sin (violation of moral law) in setting people on fire here.

 

9 hours ago, Ben Asher said:

(d) One’s God given conscious.

I was following my [fallen] conscience ... get them before they get you. So no sin (violation of moral law) in setting people on fire here.

 

Life is a LOT simpler without the 10 commandments (or Jesus' 2 Great Commandments). 😉

 

 

Edited by atpollard
spellin typo

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atpollard
8 hours ago, Ben Asher said:

Still when Christians or anyone else claims to have been under the Torah or to have been observing the Torah she-bi-khtav and/or the Torah she-be-`al peh I expect that they will at least able read what they are claiming to have followed and observed or have some knowledge of the Torah. 

No argument from me on this.  Christians are WAY too enamored with the OT Law.  My fathers were never in Egypt or Sinai or promised land in the Middle East.  They were fishing the coasts of Norway and Wales and Italy.  THAT covenant was not made with me.

 

[Acts 15:28-29 NASB] 28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."

Edited by atpollard
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Ben Asher
5 hours ago, Faber said:

 I think what they might mean (?) is that God's people are no longer under the old covenant laws.

 

And, what is meant by Old Covenant?

 

(1) Noahic Covenant and the seven mitzvot of the children of Noah /שבע מצוות בני נח / הברית עם נוח

perhaps Christians are referring to this one 

 

(2) The various Abrahamic covenants  הברית עם אברהם

 

(3) Mosaic Covenant ברית משה

In both Exodus chapter 20 and Deuteronomy Chapter 5 the receipt of the Aseret ha'Dibrot (the ten words/saying) and the rest of the Torah that extends from it was Israel alone. No, mention is made the Torah being given to the rest of the Nations or the rest of the Nations being somehow placed under the Torah. So, it would be difficult to understand how the average Christian could no longer be under something they never were under to being with.

 

(4) Davidic Covenant ברית דוד

 

(5) The covenant mentioned in the book of Jeremiah ברית חדשה the ברית עולם הבא

 

(6) The Hebrew Bible as a whole (Mikra) מקרא or rather the (Tanakh)תנ"ך

 

(7) Two or more of the above?

 

(8) None of the above, other? 

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atpollard
2 hours ago, GodsGrace said:

It felt like sin because of the Natural Law.

Isn't "Natural Law" survival of the fittest?  The school bully is natural law.  People making fun of someone who is different is natural law.

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Ben Asher
2 hours ago, GodsGrace said:

Exactly!  When did a Christian EVER follow the 613 Laws of Moses?? 

What bothers me is that they mean they are not under the Mosaic  Law, which includes the 10 commandments.

 

You make a good point. While I believe the Torah as described in the Pentateuch was given primarily to Israel alone, the New Testament actually makes mention of and repeats at least 9 of the commandments.  A Christian may not be saved by keeping them, but I believe a saved Christian will naturally keep them.

 

 

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GodsGrace
1 hour ago, atpollard said:

You apparently don't know many drug addicts.  No one WANTS to live like that, they ARE slaves to their addiction.  They cannot, as a rule, just "choose" to be free.

 

Human beings are ALL "sin addicts" ... Total Depravity (aka. Total Inability).

I don't believe in total depravity.

I believe we're all born with the sin nature...obtained through Adam's sin.

 

Total depravity means we are incapable, or unable.

If we are incapable or unable to choose between good and evil, it means that ultimately we cannot be held responsible for our sins.

 

And yet Jesus said:

 

John 5:27-29

27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 

28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 

29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deedsto a resurrection of judgment.

 

Why would ANY judgement be necessary if God has already chosen the saved and the lost?

 

Jesus said that those who did GOOD DEEDS will be resurrected to life and those who committed evil deeds to a resurrection of judgement or condemnation.

 

If God decides all,,,,there is no reason for a final judgement since we are already judged, and there would be no differentiation between the good and the evil if everyone were depraved...

 

Jesus' very words mean that persons are capable of doing good.

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