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Faber

Christians are not under the command to obey the 7th day Sabbath (Colossians 2:16)

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Faber

Colossians 2:16

Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day. (NASB)

 

Colossians 2:16 teaches that Christians are not under the command to obey the 7th day Sabbath. If one chooses to do so it is fine as long as they don't command others to do so.

 

1. NIDNTT: Here Paul argues that the Jewish law (the legal demands) were cancelled in the death of Christ (v. 14), and therefore the Jewish food regulations and religious calendar are not binding on the Christian. Included in this ritual was the Jewish sabbath observance. These observances, Paul claims, pointed to a spiritual reality fulfilled in Christ (3:410, Sabbath, W. Stott).

2. EDNT: Questions concerning the Sabbath also play a role in the religious disputes in the church at Colossae (Col 2:16). Like festivals and new moons sabbath observance is only a shadow of what is to come (3:222, sabbaton, W. Beilner).

3. TDNT: With liberation from bondage to the elementary principles of the world the dogmata are also set aside, so that the Christian community is definitely freed from the Sabbath commandment (7:30, sabbaton, Lohse).

 

A few other things ought to be pointed out:

a. As with Colossians 2:16 in the Old Covenant the Sabbath was coupled with new moons and festivals/feasts which would include the weekly Sabbath (1 Chronicles 23:31; 2 Chronicles 2:4; 8:13; 31:3; Nehemiah 10:33; Ezekiel 45:17; Hosea 2:11). Just as Christians do not have to obey the commands in regards to new moons and festivals so too they do not have to obey the command of the 7th day Sabbath.

b. Some may insist that the plural "sabbaton" is used in Colossians 2:16 so it doesn't refer to the weekly Sabbath. However, this argument is invalid because the plural elsewhere refers to the weekly Sabbath (Luke 4:16; Exodus 20:8 LXX).

c. Still another argument used is to affirm that there isn't a definite article ("the") before "Sabbath" in Colossians 2:16 so it can't refer to the weekly Sabbath. However, there also isn't a definite article before the Sabbath in John 5:9 (in the Greek text) and yet it refers to the weekly Sabbath.

 

As pointed out elsewhere all the old Covenant commands are obsolete.[*1] Only those that are repeated in the New Covenant are binding on the Christian.[*2]

 

 

[*1] https://www.christforums.org/forum/c...te-herews-8-13

 

[*2] See post #24

https://www.christforums.org/forum/c...bath-day/page2

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atpollard

I completely agree with the position stated in the OP, however, the thought of one more day reading a debate on women wearing hats makes me want to scream, so I will take the counter position just to have SOME other theological topic to discuss around here.

Hebrews 10:19-25 NASB

19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a [fn]sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24
and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another
; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

While the Saints may be under no Legal compulsion to meet on Saturday and observe the specific Sabbath Laws handed down by Moses (and certainly not the Rabbinical human traditions piled upon the OT Law), it seems reasonable to ask how a Christian would propose to "stimulate one another to love and good deeds" and "encourage one another" if a Christian were to "forsake ... assembling together" by regularly denying any and all 'sabbath' days? Clearly Hebrews 10 stands opposed to the idea of forsaking assembling together, therefore placing on Christians at a minimum, the strong recommendation (if not an actual command) to assemble together. In the current culture, assembling of the saints is accomplished via pre-arranged dates and times on specific day of the week ... a 'virtual sabbath'.

 

So even if sunset Friday to sunset Saturday is no longer critical and regulated, setting aside a day and time for God and church still seems like a very good idea, or perhaps an actual requirement.

 

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Faber
On 10/8/2017 at 7:22 AM, atpollard said:

sunset Friday to sunset Saturday

Utqiagvik, Alaska

The sun sets on November 18 or 19, and it remains below the horizon for about 66 days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utqiagvik_Alaska

 

 For anyone that still insists that the 7th day Sabbath is still binding on the Christian please explain how the "sunset to sunset" Sabbath is to be observed (cf. Leviticus 23:32) when for many days there is no sunset at all.

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Ben Asher

 

Hi Faber

 

You asked'

20 minutes ago, Faber said:

please explain how the "sunset to sunset" Sabbath is to be observed (cf. Leviticus 23:32) when for many days there is no sunset at all.

 

Your question is in my opinion a bit naive. Of course those who actually are Torah observant (Not the SDA or the Hebrew roots movement!)  would have though or anticipated such a situation. Now, please do not get me wrong I am not endorsing such an opinion or solution to the issue, but I want to illustrate one of the ways that those actually follow the Torah get around such a predicament:

 

Quote

 

We asked them, "How do you know when to light Shabbat candles if there is no sunset?"  Shaya, one of the Adler sons, had consulted Lakewood’s Rav Yitzchok Abadi, who referred him to Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach in Yerushalayim. He succeeded in reaching Rav Auerbach’s son-in-law, Rav Z. N. Goldberg, who said that Shabbat would begin and end when the sun reached the lowest point in its dip. Having lived a dozen years in Fairbanks at that time and embarked on the path of a baal tshuva with much help from Rabbi Yossi Greenberg in Anchorage, Alaska, my husband had already predicted this answer.

    To estimate when the sun would be at its lowest point in Barrow, my husband did some rough calculations based on his reading of Barrow’s location on the map, and came up with 2:33 a.m. As it turned out, the two sons had visited Rabbi Mordechai Premock, author of well-known zmanim charts just before embarking on the trip, and after feeding what they had as Barrow’s coordinates into his computer, had come up with 2:32 a.m. for that date, July 8, 1994—only a minute off!

    Based on that, local midnight (Chatzot Lailah), the time when the sun was at its lowest point in the sky would be 2:32 a.m.   Since the sun never set, that moment was also used simultaneously as sunset, time when the stars are out, dawn, and sunrise. Plag Hamincha is the earliest time to bring in Shabbat.  Plag Hamincha is 1¼ variable hours before sunset. Without the sun ever setting, each variable hour was 24 hours divided by 12 equal parts, or 2 hours long, so earliest candle lighting was 2½ hours before local midnight, or 12:02 a.m. late Friday night!

    Based on that also, latest Shma was 8:32 a.m., and havdallah could not be recited before 2:33 a.m. early Sunday morning!  The Adler sons also brought with them something in Hebrew to learn that Shabbat—a commentary which addressed how to determine when Shabbat will occur in a place where the sun does not set!  (It was Tiferet Yisrael at the end of the first Perek of Brachot in the set of the Mishna containing the commentary of Rabbi Yisroel Lifcrapz, known as the "Yuchin UBoaz" Mishnayot.)  Who could imagine ever being faced with such a situation, and that it would be addressed by a commentary on the Mishna?

 

http://zaklad-tzfat.com/barrowsh.htm

 

 

Grace and Peace

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Guest William
28 minutes ago, Faber said:

For anyone that still insists that the 7th day Sabbath is still binding on the Christian please explain how the "sunset to sunset" Sabbath is to be observed (cf. Leviticus 23:32) when for many days there is no sunset at all.

Just curious, how long were the Six Days of Creation to an Alaskan?

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Faber
2 hours ago, Ben Asher said:

I want to illustrate one of the ways that those actually follow the Torah get around such a predicament:

 

 I guess it gives new meaning to the word "evening".

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Faber
2 hours ago, William said:

Just curious, how long were the Six Days of Creation to an Alaskan?

 

  After not being able to give a reasonable response to the "evening to evening" dilemma - Ellen White received a vision that the 6pm to 6am observance was wrong - one of the members of the SDA's told me that they shouldn't be living in Alaska anyway and that they should just leave.🥴

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Guest William
7 hours ago, William said:

Just curious, how long were the Six Days of Creation to an Alaskan?

I doubt any day was relative to our self-observation. Nobody was there other than God. Before the sun and moon the governors of day and night were placed in the sky the source of days was God. Even the last chapter of Revelation speaks of God's children having no need of the sun or moon. God is our source of revelation our very source of light and not the light of creation.

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Faber

The Sabbath and physical circumcision

 

In the Old Testament if a boy was was 8 days old and that day fell on the Sabbath he would still be physically circumcised. Since physical circumcision is no longer required wouldn't it follow that the same would hold true concerning the Sabbath?

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Ben Asher
23 hours ago, Faber said:

physical circumcision is no longer required

(1)Physical circumcision was never required for one to be a Christian in see (Acts 15:22 - 29) and neither was the Sabbath for that matter!

 

However, even early on on some Jewish Christians met on the sabbath others meet right after the sabbath on the first day which in Jewish practice would have started on Saturday night at Sunset. The Christian I believe is free to meet any day of the week that his or her congregation meets.

 

(2) Circumcision all though re-stated in the Torah at Leviticus 12:3, it was actually first mentioned 400 plus years before the giving of the Law and a part from the Law under the covenant of Abraham Genesis 17:9-14. So, it is not necessarily a work of the Law.

 

(3) Christians from an observant Jewish back ground might still considered it as a sign (not for all Christians) or simply part of their ethnic heritage (not a work of law) because of  texts like Genesis 17:7, Genesis 17:13, and the example in Acts 16:3 (and 1 Corinthians 7:17-24).  They wouldn't however claim that all Christians should do so, or that they are special for doing so. (Here I am reporting some peoples/ groups within Christendom's opinions on the matter.)

 

For one interesting opinion on why Timothy was Circumcised see:

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/why-was-timothy-circumcised

 

 

23 hours ago, Faber said:

In the Old Testament if a boy was was 8 days old and that day fell on the Sabbath he would still be physically circumcised.

Yes, this is still the case today with in normative Judaism today:

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/634611/jewish/Can-a-circumcision-be-conducted-on-Shabbat.htm

 

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/circumcision-brit-milah

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/judaism/jewishethics/circumcision_1.shtml

 

https://washingtonjewishweek.com/38278/why-circumcision-overrides-shabbat/editorial-opinion/torah_commentary/

 

 

Grace and Peace

Edited by Ben Asher
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Hawkins

Nothing is cancelled from a legal point of view. The Old covenant mentioned by the Bible is for the Jews. The New Covenant mentioned by the Bible are for Christians (can be from both the Jews and gentiles). As long as the Jews accept Christ, they are Christians under the new covenant there's not necessarily a difference between the Jewish Christians and gentile Christians. However, the Jews can choose to continue to be both a Jew and a Christian at the same time, thus they can choose to abide by the Mosaic Law, while more importantly observe commands and teachings of Jesus Christ. 

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Faber
8 hours ago, Hawkins said:

Nothing is cancelled from a legal point of view. 

 

 The Old Covenant has been taken away. (Hebrews 10:9)

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Ben Asher

In the immediate context Hebrews 10:9 is not speaking of the Old Covenant, rather it is speaking about some aspect of the  ( νόμον / Noumon) Law concerning sacrifice and offerings and that is also actually the term that is used in verse 8 the preceding verse.

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Faber

 Once the sacrifices of a covenant are no longer valid then neither is the covenant to which they belong.

 Christ's death (to which those sacrifices pointed to) abolished that covenant.

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Ben Asher

@Faber regardless of ideology or theology neither the text you referenced Hebrews 10:9 nor the immediate context of that text used the term Old Covenant.

 

 

Furthermore the canon of Scriptures commonly nicknamed in English as the Old Covenant or Old Testament are the very scriptures that Paul spoke of in 2 Timothy 3:14 - 3:17. These are the only inspired Scriptures that Timothy could have been familiar with from his childhood and the same Scriptures that Paul even after the NT times were well underway states are still God breathed and are still useful. Paul does not even hint at this library of Literature being obsolete nor being invalid. The NT literature is neither less nor more inspired that the literature called Old Covenant or Old Testament. They both equally the inspired word of God

 

Grace and Peace

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NorrinRadd

Ok everyone, brace yourselves.  I have the solution to this whole problem.

 

1)  Excise the book of Hebrews.  It is the one that explicitly declares that the Mosaic Covenant is Obsolete and has been removed, along with the attached Law.

 

2)  Remove all of Paul's books.  Paul is the one who declared that the Law of Commandments and decrees and ordinances has been nullified (Eph. 2:15), destroyed (Col. 2:14).  He is the one who said it's fine to consider all days alike, none being more important than others (Rom. 14)  He's the one who showed alarm that the Galatians had reverted to considering some days as special.  He's the one who said we should not allow anyone to presume to judge us in regard to food laws or feast days or sabbaths (Col. 2:16).

 

3)  Remove Luke and Acts.  Luke was Paul's close friend and co-laborer, and was the only Evangelist to use the harmful term, "New Covenant."

 

4)  Remove John's works.  He speaks of the New Commandment in ways that suggest it is now the *only* Commandment, and explicitly said that the only "work" needed to "do the work of God" is to believe in Him.

 

5)  Remove the Petrine works.  Peter (2 Pet. 3:15) accorded Paul's works the status of "Scripture."

 

6)  Remove James.  He said that obeying the Royal Law of "Love your neighbor as yourself" was good enough.

 

7)  Remove Matthew.  He said that the entire Law and Prophets can be summed up as "Treat others as you wish others to treat you."

 

8 ) Remove Mark.  He repealed the food laws, and made the sabbath about people instead of about God.

 

I think that leaves only the OT and Jude -- A much more manageable Bible.

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Ben Asher
7 hours ago, NorrinRadd said:

Ok everyone, brace yourselves.  I have the solution to this whole problem ...

@NorrinRadd Rather than a solution points 1 through 8 of yours come of as sarcasm.

 

 

As mentioned in post#15 I believe that both the literature of the NT and the Tanakh (Torah/pentatuech, Neviim/Prophets, Ketuvim/writtings) are of equal inspiration and that they both make our received text the sacred Scriptures. Saint Paul makes clear his feelings about the Tanakh in 2 Timothy 3:14 - 3:17.

 

Now, moving on let us remember that long ago Marcion of Sinope attempted to try and create of Christian Bible without the Tanakh or the literature English speakers call Old Covenant / Old Testament. While Some then and some now accept this ideology the early church communities evidently did not. In fact in response to what Marcion attempted to do the Church clarified it's position on what makes up the Christian canon of Scripture. Even today Christian communities of faith in general seem to reject the ideology of Marcion. It seems that some like Macion would have removed the Tanakh from their bibles, but regardless I will never do so for Saint Paul clear states the Tanakh the scripture that Timothy new from childhood are inspired and useful.
 

 

By the way: Mark chapter 7:1-23 isn't about OT food laws per se, but rather about the tradition of the washing of hands before eating. The Pharisees are not accusing the Disciple breaking Biblical laws concerning Kashrut but rather of breaking their oral tradition like those concerning the washing of hands..

 

Notice how many times the Pericope mentions 'traditions':

verse 5 speakings of "the tradition of the elders" ,

verse 7 & 8 the traditions of men,

verse 9 "your traditions",

and verse 13 "tradition passed down" in contrast with scripture. 

 

Eating of food without washing one's hands ceremonially (according to a non-biblical tradition) does not defile a Jew, but it is probably still a good idea if one is eat directly with his/her hands because of the danger of bacteria. The Narrator of Mark states his understanding that Jesus thus declared all the foods whether hands or washed or not clean (see Mark 7:19).

 

Now, having said the above the laws of Kashrut (clean and unclean foods) were never given to Christians, and neither was the rest Mosaic covenant as it was given only to the Children of Israel.

 

 

 

Grace and Peace

 

 

.

 

 

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Alynarosu

Not a theologian, just a woman of faith! And as a kid when I found out they the 7 day in the calendar was not Sunday and was Saturday I was shocked ! So I ask the bible study sister “ then why we celebrate Sunday in staid of Saturday?” She told me “Jesus  resurrect on Sunday and that why we celebrate “ I was never satisfied with that answer.. anyway all my life I been to church Saturday and Sunday.. just because I was involved with the orchestra to have rehearsal on Saturday and home bible

study with my dad.. 

but  I don’t agree with the lies about  sabbat ! The Bible and the commandment stay straight God wrote it with his finger ! So we Protestants forgot that we suppose to protest about the devil in the Catholic Church and the  diabolical  system that they change the Saturday to Sunday worship!

Sunday is the worship of the sun-god witch in conclusion is the ancient  Egyptian  deity and Babylonian ! So if Jesus Christ reject sabbat then why we only celebrate Sunday ? Why we don’t celebrate Monday or Wednesday or Friday or any other day or just changing the days one week at the time ? See this why we Pentecostal we lost the power ! Because we reject Jesus commandments! He came to  for fill the law not break it ! So in conclusion we have to go back to our roots and I really think the Adventist’s church is the one closes to the trust the only little problem they got they need to be baptized with the Holy Spirit and they will be exactly as the disciples church ! Is u guy are interested to listen on YouTube .. this amazing Person that loves Jesus with all his heart talks about the sabbat and why we should keep it ! https://youtu.be/SvXyC45fmHg

 God help us get out of Babylon system! Amin  

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Guest William
1 hour ago, Alynarosu said:

Not a theologian

Well, thus far we have two people on this board that appeal to SDA.

 

I question whether appealing to deliberate ignorance and not being a theologian is symptomatic of those that reject the Trinity, follow a false prophetess, and most align with a Cult?

 

1 hour ago, Alynarosu said:

So I ask the bible study sister “ then why we celebrate Sunday in staid of Saturday?” She told me “Jesus  resurrect on Sunday and that why we celebrate “ I was never satisfied with that answer..

What does Scripture say?

 

You shouldn't be satisfied with any answer whether right or wrong unless you can perceive it from Scripture alone yourself. 

 

If you can't see it yourself then there are possible reasons for such:

 

1) deliberate appeal to ignorance

2) not a theologian

3) doesn't exists

 

1 hour ago, Alynarosu said:

So we Protestants forgot that we suppose to protest about the devil in the Catholic Church and the  diabolical  system that they change the Saturday to Sunday worship!

Are you aware of the 5 Solas the Theology of the Protestant faith?

 

Just because the Catholic church believes something doesn't mean it's wrong. We appeal to Scripture as the ultimate authority to settle these matters of dispute. However, Protestants follow Sunday worship for quite different reasons than Catholics. The Catholic church may reject Scripture alone and think like the Pentecostals that the office of Apostle (Charismatic person) is still open from which they have the authority to establish Tradition but the only tradition Protestants follow are stated in Scripture alone.

1 hour ago, Alynarosu said:

See this why we Pentecostal we lost the power !

Pentecostals use cliches like don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Pentecostals threw out Sola Scriptura long ago.

 

bruce almighty power GIF

 

God bless,

William

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Guest Becky
2 hours ago, Alynarosu said:

Not a theologian, just a woman of faith! And as a kid when I found out they the 7 day in the calendar was not Sunday and was Saturday I was shocked ! So I ask the bible study sister “ then why we celebrate Sunday in staid of Saturday?” She told me “Jesus  resurrect on Sunday and that why we celebrate “ I was never satisfied with that answer.. anyway all my life I been to church Saturday and Sunday.. just because I was involved with the orchestra to have rehearsal on Saturday and home bible

study with my dad.. 

but  I don’t agree with the lies about  sabbat ! The Bible and the commandment stay straight God wrote it with his finger ! So we Protestants forgot that we suppose to protest about the devil in the Catholic Church and the  diabolical  system that they change the Saturday to Sunday worship!

Sunday is the worship of the sun-god witch in conclusion is the ancient  Egyptian  deity and Babylonian ! So if Jesus Christ reject sabbat then why we only celebrate Sunday ? Why we don’t celebrate Monday or Wednesday or Friday or any other day or just changing the days one week at the time ? See this why we Pentecostal we lost the power ! Because we reject Jesus commandments! He came to  for fill the law not break it ! So in conclusion we have to go back to our roots and I really think the Adventist’s church is the one closes to the trust the only little problem they got they need to be baptized with the Holy Spirit and they will be exactly as the disciples church ! Is u guy are interested to listen on YouTube .. this amazing Person that loves Jesus with all his heart talks about the sabbat and why we should keep it ! https://youtu.be/SvXyC45fmHg

 God help us get out of Babylon system! Amin  

How strict do you observe  the rules of the Sabbath?  What are your guidelines, for your observance?  

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atpollard
4 hours ago, Alynarosu said:

So if Jesus Christ reject sabbat then why we only celebrate Sunday ?

The migration from Saturday corporate worship to Sunday corporate worship is an interesting story that has nothing to do with any sinister plot or pagan worship.  In the earliest church, Jewish and Gentile Christians worshipped together.  Jewish Christians attended the Saturday service alongside non-Christian Jews at the synagogues and they met together with gentile Christians to honor the Day of the Lord on Sunday.  Gentiles refrained from meeting with non-Christian Jews on Saturday to avoid offending the more numerous and powerful Jews by Gentile presence in their service.

 

When relations between Jews and Christians deteriorated after the fall of the Temple, Jewish Christians were banned from the Saturday Jewish service.  The simple, obvious, and logical solution was for Jewish Christians banned from Saturday service to simply join the Gentile Christians already meeting on the Lord’s Day (Sunday) as the day of weekly corporate worship.  

 

See, nothing sinister ... just people being people and God being God.

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deade
6 hours ago, Alynarosu said:

Not a theologian, just a woman of faith! And as a kid when I found out they the 7 day in the calendar was not Sunday and was Saturday I was shocked ! So I ask the bible study sister “ then why we celebrate Sunday in staid of Saturday?” She told me “Jesus  resurrect on Sunday and that why we celebrate “ I was never satisfied with that answer.. anyway all my life I been to church Saturday and Sunday.. just because I was involved with the orchestra to have rehearsal on Saturday and home bible

study with my dad.. 

but  I don’t agree with the lies about  sabbat ! The Bible and the commandment stay straight God wrote it with his finger ! So we Protestants forgot that we suppose to protest about the devil in the Catholic Church and the  diabolical  system that they change the Saturday to Sunday worship!

Sunday is the worship of the sun-god witch in conclusion is the ancient  Egyptian  deity and Babylonian ! So if Jesus Christ reject sabbat then why we only celebrate Sunday ? Why we don’t celebrate Monday or Wednesday or Friday or any other day or just changing the days one week at the time ? See this why we Pentecostal we lost the power ! Because we reject Jesus commandments! He came to  for fill the law not break it ! So in conclusion we have to go back to our roots and I really think the Adventist’s church is the one closes to the trust the only little problem they got they need to be baptized with the Holy Spirit and they will be exactly as the disciples church ! Is u guy are interested to listen on YouTube .. this amazing Person that loves Jesus with all his heart talks about the sabbat and why we should keep it ! https://youtu.be/SvXyC45fmHg

 God help us get out of Babylon system! Amin  

Hello Alynarosu, I see this is your first post but your profile says you joined in 2016. I little confusing. I wanted to let you know there are others that observe the seventh-day Sabbath that are not SDA.

 

There are quite a few finding their way back keeping God's laws in a more spiritual form. Just that they are not many on this Reformed Protestant forum. If you find the Adventist, like I did, lacking just keep looking.

 

Welcome to ChristForums. I hope you'll enjoy your stay here.

 

spacer.png 

 

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Faber
21 hours ago, Ben Asher said:

@Faber regardless of ideology or theology neither the text you referenced Hebrews 10:9 nor the immediate context of that text used the term Old Covenant.

 

 It doesn't have to use the specific term when the Old Covenant is clearly being referred to (cf. Hebrews 8:13).

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Faber
On 9/21/2017 at 4:12 AM, Faber said:

Colossians 2:16 teaches that Christians are not under the command to obey the 7th day Sabbath.

 

 The evidence supplied in the OP affirming the above has not been refuted.

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NorrinRadd
15 hours ago, William said:

.Just because the Catholic church believes something doesn't mean it's wrong. We appeal to Scripture as the ultimate authority to settle these matters of dispute. However, Protestants follow Sunday worship for quite different reasons than Catholics. The Catholic church may reject Scripture alone and think like the Pentecostals that the office of Apostle (Charismatic person) is still open from which they have the authority to establish Tradition but the only tradition Protestants follow are stated in Scripture alone.

Pentecostals use cliches like don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Pentecostals threw out Sola Scriptura long ago..

God bless,

William

Please don't be so ignorant as to imply that all, or even most, Pentecostals would agree with the stuff Alynarosu is saying.

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